Oh deary deary me - another Macht Frei Moment

Richie-from-the-Boro

You could lose your benefits if you appeal

Allo Allo Von Flockenstuffen

jennie-jack

can you see im rolling my eyes.

i dont know where they get their info from.

cit_k

It can already happen if you challenge a tribunal service decision, they refused to pay reduced rate income support during the appeal of an appeal, and only backdated IB payments/IS payments at the end of the 2 year battle for me.

You are already penalised, if you should be eligible for more money, as the assessment rate is less than the going rate for support group etc etc, and the difference is denied to you until you win the appeal.

Anyone know if there is a source to their claims, that even the assessment rate wont be paid?

The oft quoted figure of a cost of 50 million for esa appeals also seems to be innacurate, at least according to the DWP

In reply to Q 4 Jobcentre Plus is responsible for a part of the appeal process against medical assessment decisions relating to ESA. The majority of the process is then handled by the Tribunals Service.

Within Jobcentre Plus the direct staff administration cost of ESA appeals for the period from April 2010 to January 2011, the latest period for which figures are available, was £10m. The Tribunals Service has provided the following information in relation to 2009-2010.

2009/10
Receipts... Disposals Total Cost...... Average Cost
339,215......279,030....£81,760,709 ..£293.02

google for ""VTR FOI 1951-452"" for the source of the above.

That seems to indicate is 81 million Tribunal Cost (one year) + 10 million DWP cost (for less than a year)

cit_k

Ok, update on the situation.

This was queried officially, you can read the question, and answer here.

However, the answer is the usual pile of rubbish from Chris Grayling, that manages to completely not answer the question in any way shape or form, and just waffles on about current policy.

So not actually answering wether this is planned, just a devious way of avoiding the question (either that or the man was just incredibly stupid.).

rogerblack

It was a badly put question to the secetary of state.
It's a common tactic if you want to seem helpful to answer the question you wanted to be asked, not the one that was.

Simply asking the first question alone would have given less wiggle-room. (in addition, the answers to the rest are on the web.

It wouldn't be - quite - so bad - if appeals were not taking well over 30 weeks on average.

Richie-from-the-Boro

rogerblack wrote: »

It was a badly put question to the secetary of state.
It's a common tactic if you want to seem helpful to answer the question you wanted to be asked, not the one that was.

Simply asking the first question alone would have given less wiggle-room. (in addition, the answers to the rest are on the web.

It wouldn't be - quite - so bad - if appeals were not taking well over 30 weeks on average.

Because of the ESA backlog its a lot higher than than now, and if :

- 30% of those declared "fit for work" appeal, and 40% of them win
- the test itself is very badly designed and clearly flawed
- unless by design its just to get people off benefit regardless
- in which case the test is perfect and LiMA's inflexible design means a monkey could get the same result

robus

Surely this idea is the right way forward.

If you have been found fit for work, how is it that you can still be paid ESA whilst appealing that decision? This merry go round is abused day in day out.

claim ESA, fail the ATOS assessment, appeal, appeal heard 6 months down the line, appeal lost, claim ESA, fail the ATOS assessment......

In all this time they are paid ESA!!!!

What should happen is that those who are found fit for work should be stopped from claiming ESA, but made to claim JSA. If they want to appeal the ESA decision fine, let them.

But in the meantime with JSA you have the disability advisor who could work for you. Oh yes, you would have to sign on every week/fortnight!!!

eskimo26

robus wrote: »

Surely this idea is the right way forward.

If you have been found fit for work, how is it that you can still be paid ESA whilst appealing that decision? This merry go round is abused day in day out.

claim ESA, fail the ATOS assessment, appeal, appeal heard 6 months down the line, appeal lost, claim ESA, fail the ATOS assessment......

In all this time they are paid ESA!!!!

What should happen is that those who are found fit for work should be stopped from claiming ESA, but made to claim JSA. If they want to appeal the ESA decision fine, let them.

But in the meantime with JSA you have the disability advisor who could work for you. Oh yes, you would have to sign on every week/fortnight!!!

Complete and utter garbage as is pretty much on par for you.
1/ If you are able to stay on JSA for the period of time it would take for your assessment to be heard that alone would be used against you as strong evidence. It doesn't make sense to start looking for jobs if you are maintaining you are to sick to do so.

2/ That's a big IF too because a lot of people are to sick to sign on hence why they claim ESA. Here we are talking about a whole rang of disabilities, including mental health such as paranoia, depression, serious anxiety, a whole raft of phobias such as agrophobia.

3/ The disability adviser is only as good as their budget and my last experience with mine was quite dire. She didn't know her !!!! from her elbow and insisted their was no funding to do anything, ever in any way shape or form. (Then she took a phone call right in front of me talking to a disabled client who she had just secured funding for.)

I can tell you've never found yourself in this situation, the reality is very different to your quaint fantasy.

robus

eskimo26 wrote: »

Complete and utter garbage as is pretty much on par for you.
1/ If you are able to stay on JSA for the period of time it would take for your assessment to be heard that alone would be used against you as strong evidence. It doesn't make sense to start looking for jobs if you are maintaining you are to sick to do so.

2/ That's a big IF too because a lot of people are to sick to sign on hence why they claim ESA. Here we are talking about a whole rang of disabilities, including mental health such as paranoia, depression, serious anxiety, a whole raft of phobias such as agrophobia.

3/ The disability adviser is only as good as their budget and my last experience with mine was quite dire. She didn't know her !!!! from her elbow and insisted their was no funding to do anything, ever in any way shape or form. (Then she took a phone call right in front of me talking to a disabled client who she had just secured funding for.)

I can tell you've never found yourself in this situation, the reality is very different to your quaint fantasy.[/QUOTE]

For a start there is no reason for you to make your post into a personal attack on me. Surely you have seen this roundabout of claimants claiming ESA who know full well that they are never going to pass the ATOS assessment yet continue to claim and appeal because for the same level of income, it is a damn sight easier than claiming JSA. The only bit of effort the claimant has to give is to send in sick notes.

Have I not? I failed the ESA assessment and went on to claim JSA instead whilst appealing the ESA decision. To me that is what is supposed to happen.
I never had a disability advisor, because I chose not to be given a label that would make me feel worse about myself.
Yes I signed on, until some weeks later when I was taken into A&E with another episode.
Yes I also have an enhanced care plan from the local CMHT.

Because I could not sign on, I lost my money. When I came out of hospital I reclaimed ESA on the basis of a deterioration of my illness.

Eventually, and without having to go to the Tribunal I was put into the Support Group.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

You could lose your benefits if you appeal

Follow up :

- the original Times article which was written by Michael Savage
- then a New Statesman journo wrote the article #1 and didn't check out the original source
- copying information from other journo's without checking its efficacy is lazy but commonplace journalism

So unless the real origin of the comments are revealed rather than ' Whitehall Sources ' we may never know the truth

rogerblack

robus wrote: »

What should happen is that those who are found fit for work should be stopped from claiming ESA, but made to claim JSA. If they want to appeal the ESA decision fine, let them.

You cannot legally claim JSA, unless you can sign a jobseekers agreement stating that you are available for work 16 hours a week.

So - if you're refused ESA (as one of the at least 15% that go on to appeal and win this decision) - should you fraudulently claim JSA?

I note that merely being unable to work a 16 hour week is not grounds for claiming ESA.