Cut School Leaving Age to 14

Idiophreak

Flight2quality wrote: »

some people leave school (uni) in their late 20's, then end up working in a fast food dump.

If they did that when they were 14 not so bad and start learning about real life, those with some get up and go will do well for themselves.

I assume those with this "get and go" also do well for themselves when they leave university - so not sure what your point is?

Are you saying that those without get up and go (that are unwilling to help themselves by achieving in school) are just going to sit at home in their pants and do nothing if they leave at 14? Whilst those "with get up and go" will do well whenever they leave education?

pqrdef

Not sure what planet Chris Woodhead is on. But if leaving school at 14 becomes an option, it'll be the option taken by those unlikely to get any GCSEs worth mentioning, for whatever reason.

Employers are not going to be queuing up to offer those kids the sort of scheme that Woodhead seems to have in mind. If they want to do that sort of thing at all, they can fill the places with 16-year-olds who've got GCSEs.

the_flying_pig

We very likely do educate too many people, in disciplines that they're poorly suited too, for too many years.

But even for the absolutely least able my instinct is that there's a strong case for staying at school till 16. The least able should be studying a very bespoke programme, maybe even starting to do so younger than aged 14, based around:

(1) No foreign language - the least able invariably struggle dreadfully with these, with no benefit;
(2) Basic science - covering all of the bits of physics, chemistry, & biology that are easy and useful in everyday life, e.g. 'no' to the periodic table/forces & motion, 'yes' to basic practical electrics & health-related aspects of biology;
(3) Basic maths - no calculus, trig, or whatnot but plenty of the simple arithmetic, percentages, etc, stuff;
(4) Basic English - no agonising over Shakespeare passages, lots of time spent on understanding and producing clear, well-written, modern English;
(5) IT;
etc.

Percy1983

I will say dropping foreign languages would be good, I spent my entire secondary school 'learning' german and a year learning french (they made you take a second foreign language in year 9 which you can drop again).

All it got me was a lot of wasted time a few german sayings (ich hasse deutsche) and an E in a GCSE.

chewmylegoff

Percy1983 wrote: »

I will say dropping foreign languages would be good, I spent my entire secondary school 'learning' german and a year learning french (they made you take a second foreign language in year 9 which you can drop again).

All it got me was a lot of wasted time a few german sayings (ich hasse deutsche) and an E in a GCSE.

i used to think that french lessons at school were a complete waste of time, but then i managed to order a couple of beers last time i was there, so it turned out that wasn't a complete waste after all.

obviously they knew i was english so they still spat in the beer, but you can't have everything.

Idiophreak

Percy1983 wrote: »

I will say dropping foreign languages would be good, I spent my entire secondary school 'learning' german and a year learning french (they made you take a second foreign language in year 9 which you can drop again).

All it got me was a lot of wasted time a few german sayings (ich hasse deutsche) and an E in a GCSE.

But who was wasting the time? Them for making you do German, or you for getting an E?

pqrdef

Percy1983 wrote: »

All it got me was a lot of wasted time a few german sayings (ich hasse deutsche) and an E in a GCSE.

The way schools teach languages isn't the right approach for most people. Many of those who get good passes fail to achieve any actual fluency. They just memorise vocabulary and inflections and rules and figure it out as an exercise in logic.

But then, the way schools teach most things isn't the right approach. It stems from a long tradition of doing the job on the cheap.

the_flying_pig

chewmylegoff wrote: »

i used to think that french lessons at school were a complete waste of time, but then i managed to order a couple of beers last time i was there, so it turned out that wasn't a complete waste after all...

i found the same a few years ago. IIRC the beers came in three sizes, namely 25cl, 50cl, and a bigger glass, I don't remember how big [I suppose a litre, most likely]. I was glad to remember my numbers so as to, when my round came up, save cash by ordering a round of tiddlers [still fairly pricey in Paris, mind] without my non french speaking chums realising what I was doing, & pretending to be surprised when the waiter delivered three tiny glasses.

Percy1983

Idiophreak wrote: »

But who was wasting the time? Them for making you do German, or you for getting an E?

I can honestly say I tried, it just never made any sense to me, I had strengths in other areas where I did very well.

I am sure there is things in life which just don't make sense to most of us, in my case its other languages.

With that I do agree that most teaching these days is based on memory to which I don't do to well. I learn via logic, in short not learning the rules but learning why the rules work. In german this didn't help in maths and science I did really well.

With that I wasn't well suited to school and would have got out at 14 if I could, as it is I did an apprenticeship and it all figured out, I already knew A-levels/Uni (ie more school) just wasn't for me.

Idiophreak

Percy1983 wrote: »

I am sure there is things in life which just don't make sense to most of us, in my case its other languages.

Right, so it should be dropped from the curriculum because *you* can't make sense of it?

As you say, everyone has *something* they don't excel at - should we drop all of it? Just let kids turn up and learn whatever they fancy that day?

FWIW, I'm also a very "rules based" person - very good at maths and computing, not much good at anything else...If I'd have had the chance I'd have dropped French in an instant...But I got stuck in and now know enough to get by on weekend breaks...