Selling on Amazon, A-Z Guarantee case

DWatts

I apologize in advance for how long this might be, but I would really appreciate any advice on this!

I sold a camera through Amazon at the start of September. I had the camera listed for several months, and I was offering some extras with the camera (incuding an SD card). I later decided not to include the SD card and removed it from the listing late August. Here was the description of the camera:

Marking on the top of the camera, some slight marks all around but in generally good condition. In box with all manuals, leads etc. - as well as a Wide Angle lens adapter, sun hood, accessory shoe adapter (lets you attach standard accessory shoe microphones, lights etc.), genuine Canon extra capacity battery (was about £80 in 2008).

So someone bought the camera in early September. I shipped it and later got an email saying it was "damaged in transit" and the SD card was missing. After several e-mails I established that the buyer thought the listing said the camera had no damage at all and came with an SD card, and he also claimed some software (that was definitely included in the box) was missing. However, I had left part of the charger out by mistake so I sent that to him by 1st class Royal Mail the next day. Every e-mail I received was asking for a refund for various different faults, even a claim that the picture quality was bad from 'where it had been dropped' (it hadn't.) I saw no reason to offer a refund at that point, since I suspect it was a case of buyers remorse.

Unsurprisingly the charger 'never arrived' and he still wanted a refund, so he opened an 'A-Z guarantee case' through Amazon. I stated my case, saying the camera was provided exactly as described and cleared up the issue of the SD card (I altered the listing so it was no longer included or part of the description when the buyer purchased the camera). However a week later I received a message saying that because the SD card wasn't included the item was 'materially different' to the Amazon listing and I should offer a return.

I assume that the investigator thought the SD card was an original item with the camera, and by taking it out of the listing the camera was now 'materially different'. So I replied clearing this up, that the item sold included everything the camera came with (from Amazon, no less). I got a reply ignoring the contents of my e-mail saying "Thank you for your reply, however we require you to accept a return and provide your return address."

I replied asking why, since I had not sold a materially different item.

Now they are saying that "all Amazon Marketplace sellers are held to a high standard and *must* accept returns as a normal part of doing business" and pointed me to this part of their policies. However, this states only that:

"Amazon Marketplace sellers are required to accept returns even if the merchandise was exactly as described. If you refuse to accept the return of an item and Amazon.co.uk determines that it is materially different, you may be held responsible for any Guarantee claim or charge dispute filed for the transaction."

Therefore unless Amazon claims the item was materially different, I can refuse to accept the return and theoretically they can't force me to offer a refund.


However. I'm kind of worried that since they seem very set on siding with the buyer regardless of their own policies, they might force a refund from my account. I have switched my payment method on Amazon to my Barclaycard just in case they try this. I am tempted to do a credit card chargeback if Amazon attempt to force a refund the buyer, but Amazon seem to suggest that the buyer is not obligated to return the item to me under any circumstances.

Therefore if they force a refund and I don't accept a return, in the end I could be left without the money and without a camera to sell. Offering a return under their policies wouldn't cost me any money (I do not have to refund shipping costs or refund the buyer for sending the item back), however the camera will now be missing the charger, probably be damaged, and frankly I got a good price for it so I'm intent on keeping the money!

Thanks for making it this far! And I'd appreciate any advice on what I should do next..

Oliver14

Amazon are very pro buyer (they make ebay look like fluffy bunnies) You are better off accepting the return and refunding otherwise Amazon will force a refund and then probably ban you from selling altogether.. I'm afraid these sort of problems are one of the risks you have to accept with selling.

Also i'm really not sure on what grounds you will be able to force a chargeback from Barclaycard so I wouldn't bet on that being successful

arcon5

Email the buyer explicitly asking if you accept the return we they return the charger supplied with the item atthe same time. If the agree forward the email to Amazon stating the item is as described.

It's absolutely a long shot, but I can't help but agree with above -- trying to fight their decision on this is like flogging a dead horse.

I would also not be surprised if they are still storing your bank details before changing them.

visidigi

DWatts wrote: »

"Amazon Marketplace sellers are required to accept returns even if the merchandise was exactly as described. If you refuse to accept the return of an item and Amazon.co.uk determines that it is materially different, you may be held responsible for any Guarantee claim or charge dispute filed for the transaction."

There is a very clear AND in that statement, which says to me the refund is ALWAYS an option and does not rely on the view of amazon.co.uk.

The terms of the site always require you to offer a refund.

soolin

Amazon enforce the DSRs rigidly and you cannot refuse to refund. I often see posts on various boards saying that people shoul duse Amazon to sell ratehr than ebay as they are better for sellers and this is completely wrong. The Amazon pro buyer stance is so much more punative than ebay- everything you sell can be returned and where sellers start arguing the refund can be made without the goods being returned- so be very very careful.

Incidentally Amazon will refund all the original payment, including the postage you received in the first instance, and they will charge your card.

DWatts

visidigi wrote: »

There is a very clear AND in that statement, which says to me the refund is ALWAYS an option and does not rely on the view of amazon.co.uk.

The terms of the site always require you to offer a refund.

Would the and in that case not mean that I have to refuse a refund and have Amazon decide it's materially different (i.e. both must be true) for them to force a refund (through the A-Z Guarantee)?

soolin wrote: »

Amazon enforce the DSRs rigidly and you cannot refuse to refund. I often see posts on various boards saying that people shoul duse Amazon to sell ratehr than ebay as they are better for sellers and this is completely wrong. The Amazon pro buyer stance is so much more punative than ebay- everything you sell can be returned and where sellers start arguing the refund can be made without the goods being returned- so be very very careful.

I was under the impression DSR's were for businesses only?

Thanks for all the information though, everyone. I'll have to see where I can get with them and (probably) eventually offer a refund to the guy, since they don't seem to be listening to reason. It's just annoying because what they're doing is blatantly against their participation agreement:

6.3 A payment made by a buyer in respect of a particular item will not be due or payable to a seller (or if paid, shall be reimbursed by the seller to us), and we will not be liable to the seller if:

(a) we, in our sole and absolute discretion, (i) decide to pay the buyer in relation to that item under the terms of the Amazon A-z Guarantee,

Therefore a refund can only be forced in the case of an A-Z Guarantee.

1.1 AMAZON WANTS YOU TO HAVE A SAFE BUYING EXPERIENCE. IF THE BUYER OF AN ITEM HAS PROVIDED PAYMENT TO THE SELLER, BUT THE SELLER DID NOT DELIVER THE ITEM, OR, IF THE BUYER RECEIVED THE ITEM, BUT IT WAS MATERIALLY DIFFERENT FROM THE SELLER'S DESCRIPTION OF THE ITEM, AMAZON WILL PAY THE BUYER UP TO £2,000 OF THE PURCHASE PRICE, INCLUDING SHIPPING CHARGES SUBJECT TO THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS. THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS APPLY TO THE AMAZON A-Z GUARANTEE:

So unless the item is 'materially different', the A-Z Guarantee does not count. Regardless of whether I should offer a refund or not under different terms of their community guidelines, it shouldn't be offered under the A-Z Guarantee.

I suppose at least Amazon does seem to stick up for it's buyers, unlike ebay. Shame they don't seem to quite understand their own policies.

soolin

There is no way of differentiating between private and business sellers on Amazon so they enforce the DSRs on everyone. As such you are required to give a full refund.

DWatts

soolin wrote: »

There is no way of differentiating between private and business sellers on Amazon so they enforce the DSRs on everyone. As such you are required to give a full refund.

Even though enforcement of the DSR's is outside the scope of Amazon's forced-refunds policy, don't the DSR's only require me to refund the cost of the item, not the postage?

arcon5

DWatts wrote: »

Even though enforcement of the DSR's is outside the scope of Amazon's forced-refunds policy, don't the DSR's only require me to refund the cost of the item, not the postage?

DSRs require you to to refund full price paid ie including the original postage costs.

But that aside though, your bound by Amazons terms and conditions which stipulate you must accept returns, so you must therefore do just that.

This is the risk of selling online, seems you have been badly burnt by this buyer, but as much as i'm sure everybody agrees on this, you really are fighting a loosing battle.

DWatts

arcon5 wrote: »

This is the risk of selling online, seems you have been badly burnt by this buyer, but as much as i'm sure everybody agrees on this, you really are fighting a loosing battle.

It would appear so. Just e-mailed the buyer offering the terms of a refund - at least he's going to be out of pocket returning the camera to me.

It's a shame there's no good alternative to Ebay/Amazon/Play. They charge you ridiculous fees for the privilege of offering almost no real protection.

Thanks for the help.

arcon5

If your not planning on using Amazon again for selling, i'd be tempted to not refund the buyer and await Amazon to do it. May aswell make the buyers life a little hard and keep your cashflow happy