Selling on Amazon, A-Z Guarantee case

_Debs_

This seems very similar to an ongoing case my partner is involved with.

Basically he sold an item through Amazon and the person acknowledged receipt. Five weeks later the buyer then contacted my partner to advise that he could not get the item to charge or connect to a computer (the item was however fully charged before we sent it) but at no point did he request a refund. The person claims he has sent the device off to be "repaired" by the manufacturer (and paid £40 for it) but states that it is still not working.

Within Amazon’s Terms & Conditions they state a time period for requesting refunds. The buyer is outwith all these time periods. However after lengthy back and forth e-mail correspondence with Amazon, they have advised my partner to issue a refund as the item differed to how it was described. They advised they would not ask the buyer to return the item but expected my partner to refund the £150. My partner advised them he would not do this and Amazon replied stating that they would not read any further correspondence we send them and have withdrawn the funds from my partner's account. They however have not withdrawn them and my partner has contacted his bank to make sure that no withdrawals from Amazon are authorised.

We have contacted Watchdog about it and to be honest, I am unsure what further action Amazon will take. They are clearly not adhering to their own Terms and Conditions. If it comes to it I think we will just have to seek legal advice.

There is also a case I read online involving a PS3 being sold and the same thing happening. I am unable to link to this story.

DWatts

_Debs_ wrote: »

Within Amazon’s Terms & Conditions they state a time period for requesting refunds. The buyer is outwith all these time periods. However after lengthy back and forth e-mail correspondence with Amazon, they have advised my partner to issue a refund as the item differed to how it was described. They advised they would not ask the buyer to return the item but expected my partner to refund the £150. My partner advised them he would not do this and Amazon replied stating that they would not read any further correspondence we send them and have withdrawn the funds from my partner's account. They however have not withdrawn them and my partner has contacted his bank to make sure that no withdrawals from Amazon are authorised.

We have contacted Watchdog about it and to be honest, I am unsure what further action Amazon will take. They are clearly not adhering to their own Terms and Conditions. If it comes to it I think we will just have to seek legal advice.

There is also a case I read online involving a PS3 being sold and the same thing happening. I am unable to link to this story.

The problem is Amazon don't seem to understand their own terms and conditions - or understand them and choose to ignore them. All of my correspondence has been through an A-Z Guarantee dispute, even though Amazon are no longer claiming that the item was materially different (and therefore, the A-Z Guarantee is irrelevant.)

I am ever-so-tempted to do the same and refuse to offer a refund and ask my credit card company and Bank (in case they try to get the money back through the account I have set up for deposits) to refuse any charge from them. But at the same time, I know they could put it into a legal case and probably win just because they're Amazon - it doesn't matter if they're breaking their policies or not.

I'm not sure how this system (especially in your face) doesn't amount to theft. If the buyer takes the item and then gets a refund for the transaction, shouldn't they no longer be the rightful owner of it? If sales are based on contracts, and that contract is then cancelled, then surely ownership reverts back too?

visidigi

DWatts wrote: »

Would the and in that case not mean that I have to refuse a refund and have Amazon decide it's materially different (i.e. both must be true) for them to force a refund (through the A-Z Guarantee)?

No it means if you do not offer a refund and as a result of you not refunding they would THEN make the decision if it was correctly described or not.

Makes sense really as if you refund then they dont need to make that decision I guess.

Must admit, it seems the fraudsters have got the amazon system completely sewn up if you ask me...

_Debs_

DWatts wrote: »

The problem is Amazon don't seem to understand their own terms and conditions - or understand them and choose to ignore them. All of my correspondence has been through an A-Z Guarantee dispute, even though Amazon are no longer claiming that the item was materially different (and therefore, the A-Z Guarantee is irrelevant.)

I am ever-so-tempted to do the same and refuse to offer a refund and ask my credit card company and Bank (in case they try to get the money back through the account I have set up for deposits) to refuse any charge from them. But at the same time, I know they could put it into a legal case and probably win just because they're Amazon - it doesn't matter if they're breaking their policies or not.

I'm not sure how this system (especially in your face) doesn't amount to theft. If the buyer takes the item and then gets a refund for the transaction, shouldn't they no longer be the rightful owner of it? If sales are based on contracts, and that contract is then cancelled, then surely ownership reverts back too?

I agree, at all points of correspondence they have chosen to ignore any reference we have made directly quoting their own terms and conditions.

Our bank have advised that they cannot take the money from our account set up for deposits because it is a savings account. However they also have our current account details and the bank advised the only way to avoid them taking payment would be to ask for a new card and cancel our old one, which we have done.

I think the issue of whether or not the buyer is the rightful owner is all down to each specific case. To be honest we have also thought that if somehow they do manage to remove money from our account that we would report the item stolen to the police. We have doubts that the item is actually not working so if it is, it will be used and tracked.

I have read various cases about this online now and it certainly doesn’t seem to be a one off. It seems to be an easy way to make money as each buyer can have up to 5 A-Z guarantee claims. So I could basically go and buy five expensive televisions from five different sellers, claim they are faulty, and eventually Amazon will demand they refund me. I somehow don’t see this as being legal and that is why if there is no resolution, which I doubt there will be, I will be seeking legal advice.

DWatts

Yes, this certainly does seem to be a very well organized scam people have going. May I ask, was your buyer clearly not a native English speaker? I have recently had an e-mail asking about a monitor I had listed that seemed strikingly similar to a similar e-mail I had about the camera - both were written in very bad English.

I might try a similar tack with the Bank. At least it would force Amazon to show their hand first before simply e-mailing me saying "Oh, by the way, we've taken your money and you're not getting the item back". At the moment they're in a position of power since they have the means to take money from me, and I can't deny I would like to reverse that and fight for this money.

What did you say to the bank, exactly? I've deleted all payment methods from my Amazon account (credit/debit card) but my current account is still linked for Marketplace deposits, so I'm worried they could try and take money from that. My debit card is also linked on the Marketplace screen, so I could cancel that. But I don't want to call up my bank (Llyods) and sound like I'm trying to defraud Amazon when it's actually the complete opposite!

_Debs_

Yes, the first e-mail we received was extremely bad English. It did however seem to improve through the correspondence but towards the last few e-mails it had bouts of bad English.

Well we basically contacted the bank and explained the situation and explained our reasons for wanting to stop any transactions. We had a savings account for deposits from Amazon which the bank advised they could not withdraw from anyway. We also had a current account set up which was the one they advised to cancel the card and they sent out a new one and this was the only way they could stop any money being taken.