Employer refusing SSP payments. Advice required.

WaLL-E_2

Not for myself, but for a relative. I'll also let their other half know about this thread, so one or both of them may or may not respond with exact information. Just looking for a bit of advice on where this person stands & what to do next.

Basically this person has been unlucky with things this year in that they've ended up having a fair few days off sick. Scattered days - blocks of 3 here, 4 there etc. They had approx 2 months off signed by a doctor due to a serious injury somewhere in the middle of the year. This accident was at home.
The person also had an accident at work which required yet more time off which was again for a couple weeks.

They've now had another injury, this time at home again & signed themselves self-sick for a week. This stretched into another week, which a doctors note was provided.

At this persons workplace, they are paid weekly to their bank account. The payment this week (which was for the week they were signed self-sick) never got paid.

This persons other half questioned this & was met with verbal abuse from the employer. A string of accusations.

The employer is complaining about paying this employee SSP & has said that it comes out of their pocket (is this true? I thought employers could claim SSP back?).

The employer is claiming that the injured party has quit because they've had no word from the person - even though absence has been reported via the telephone & then for the second week a doctors note was provided.

So the employer is still refusing to pay SSP, which is obviously causing stress at home of the injured party.


Just looking for a bit of advice regarding where the injured party stands. What they should do next, where they can go to carry out said advice.





I appreciate that a lot of time off has been had. At the same time, it is possible for someone to have a terribly unlucky year. Their previous year could've had zero sick days for e.g. & the next year could have zero sick days. It's possible to just be an unlucky year.

Also, am looking for advice beyond "find another job". Am looking to find out what can actually be done regarding this SSP non-payment situation.


Thanks in advance.

patanne

I can't help with what your relative should do but I can perhaps, having done wages for quite a long time, explain what the employers practical issues are. Firstly, unless the SSP part of their wage bill is a very large percentage of the bill then they cannot claim any of it back, it comes out of their pocket. Secondly, it is probable that all the periods of sickness are linked. That is so close together that there are no 3 waiting days for each period of sickness which would be more normal. Also if several of these periods of sickness are self certificated, then he will be wondering just how real they are. That is just human nature! Add this to the fact that his business is probably suffering at present will undoubtedly be adding to the problem. I know that this does not help but perhaps it may help you see that he may not really be quite as bad a bad guy after all but just a very worried man.

TrixieB

if an employer cannot pay SSP they HAVE to give the employee form SSP1 stating this which employee takes to job centre and apply for ESA. If the employer is wrong and should be paying I believe I have read *somewhere* they can be forced by HRMC to pay it.

Hope this helps.

CIS

HMRC guidance

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/paye/employees/statutory-pay/ssp-overview.htm

Jarndyce

WaLL-E wrote: »

The employer is claiming that the injured party has quit because they've had no word from the person - even though absence has been reported via the telephone & then for the second week a doctors note was provided.
.

I'd be more concerned about this than the money in the short term, to be honest.

Is there a written procedure which sets out what they are supposed to do regarding notifying the employer when sick, because if there is, and the employee hasn't followed it, then that could well be cause for dismissal for unauthorised absence.

Equally, their sick record could be cause for dismissal in the medium term anyway.

Not the time to rock the boat I would say, they need to keep everything on a civil level. But they do need to find out from the employer what the position is as regards a) their job and b) their sick pay, and not just assume anything. Only when they know exactly what the employer is going to do in the cold light of day can they respond accordingly.

WaLL-E_2

Thanks for the positive replies.

Regarding the notice procedure - i know the procedure is that if you are to inform the company of your absence, then you are to telephone management before you are due to start work. Not reception, not your mate in another department etc etc, but management & only management.

At this moment, i don't know whether that procedure was followed or not.


Regarding getting a response from the employer on the current situation - what would you advise?

A face to face informal meeting seems unlikely to be productive now that the persons other half was met with a volley of verbal abuse. The employer is known to be a hot-headed shoot first & ask questions later person apparently.
Telephone conversation leaves no witnesses.
Which would leave communicating via letter i would imagine. Enduring as to why SSP is not being paid & why the employer thought the employee had left the company as this is not the case.

What would your recommendation be?

JOFFSTICK

If a face to face cant be arranged then i would suggest citizens advice. they are pretty good at mediating.

SarEl

You need to clarify whether the employer is saying this person has resigned / failed to follow sickness absence procedures / AWOL; or whether the employer is refusing to pay SSP. It is something of a myth that employers have to pay SSP - they have the right to refuse to pay if they are saying that they do not believe the individual is genuinely unfit for work, and a GP's fit note is not something that the employer has to believe, and does not authorise payment of sick pay. As Jarndyce has suggested, a sickness record of this sort could be grounds for dismissal anyway, but if they are questioing the veracity of the sickness record, then that has to be handled differently again. I would suggest at this stage that a formal grievance should be lodged regarding non-payment of sick pay and rejecting the claim that the individual has resigned.

WaLL-E_2

SarEl wrote: »

they have the right to refuse to pay if they are saying that they do not believe the individual is genuinely unfit for work, and a GP's fit note is not something that the employer has to believe, and does not authorise payment of sick pay.

Thanks for that.

SarEl

Not off the top of my head but it is buried somewhere in the regulations for SSP - but it is confirmed here http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/Illorinjured/DG_175850

It rarely happens, but it can happen. Which is why it is important to clarify exactly on what basis the employer is refusing. There are a number of grounds for refusing SSP and what the employer needs to do to establish those grounds is different in each case. I recall a case (not relevant to yours I doubt, but illustrates the point) on one of these boards where someone had swine flu (allegedly), was off work for a week and went to a car boot sale on the Sunday (selling stuff with a relative), then had another week off because she suffered a relapse. Or that was her version of events. Unfortunately she was seen at the car boot sale by people she worked with and the employer refused both SSP and company sick pay for the whole two weeks. She claimed that she had felt better on Sunday and wanted to get out, but the employer didn't accept that and argued that she had never been ill. In the circumstances she was "lucky" to get off with the loss of two weeks pay and a final warning - she may have been telling the truth, but there was sufficient reasonable belief for the employer to say that she was lying about being sick.

moremore

SarEl wrote: »

Not off the top of my head but it is buried somewhere in the regulations for SSP - but it is confirmed here http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/BenefitsTaxCreditsAndOtherSupport/Illorinjured/DG_175850

It rarely happens, but it can happen. Which is why it is important to clarify exactly on what basis the employer is refusing. There are a number of grounds for refusing SSP and what the employer needs to do to establish those grounds is different in each case. I recall a case (not relevant to yours I doubt, but illustrates the point) on one of these boards where someone had swine flu (allegedly), was off work for a week and went to a car boot sale on the Sunday (selling stuff with a relative), then had another week off because she suffered a relapse. Or that was her version of events. Unfortunately she was seen at the car boot sale by people she worked with and the employer refused both SSP and company sick pay for the whole two weeks. She claimed that she had felt better on Sunday and wanted to get out, but the employer didn't accept that and argued that she had never been ill. In the circumstances she was "lucky" to get off with the loss of two weeks pay and a final warning - she may have been telling the truth, but there was sufficient reasonable belief for the employer to say that she was lying about being sick.

I am really surprise about employers being able to override GP’s sick note on such flimsy evidence ie being seen out by another colleague, surely there be repercussions for the employer if that member of staff got very ill due to going back to work on employers instructions.

Surely a GP with many years of training would be the best person as opposed to employer to say whether a patient is fit for work or not as the case maybe.