Glasgow Council PCN - ticket from wrong machine!

maryhillgirl

I was horrified to get a PCN while visiting Glasgow last week, code 06, "parked without clearly displaying a valid Pay and Display Ticket/Voucher"
Briefly, I drove around Lilybank Car Park, controlled by Glasgow City Parking, no spaces available, then found an on-street marked space adjacent to car park on Lilybank Gardens. Checked lamposts for parking info, saw only a virtually illegible, filthy notice on a pole indicating Pay and Display. Couldn't see any machine on-street from which to buy ticket so purchased 3 hour ticket from car park machine, cost £1.80. Returned 2 hours later to find PCN on screen.
Asked advice from passing parking attendant who pointed out street parking ticket machine way down the road, concealed behind a hedge. When I checked it, I realised I had paid DOUBLE the required amount as it would only have cost 90p had I used the "correct" machine.
I have had my initial, informal, written appeal instantly rejected by Glasgow Council, their argument being that tickets are not tranferrable between car park and on-street areas as different rates apply, totally missing the point that I paid twice as much as I should have done.
Just need a bit of advice as to how clear the signage should have been to a non-local motorist regarding where to purchase my ticket. I have clear photographs of the illegible street parking information sign, the ticket machine hiding in the hedge and my car displaying the "wrong" ticket.
http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i340/alimail1/ParkingTicket001.jpg
Sign on street by my car
http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i340/alimail1/ParkingTicket004-2.jpg
Machine way up on right in hedge. Entrance to car park on right by wheelybin.
I obviously had no intention of evading payment, paid twice as much as I should have done and returned well within the hours purchased.
I made every effort to comply with requirements and feel well-annoyed by the whole episode.
Any Glasgow drivers or other good souls out there who can offer any suggestions when I take this to the next stage of the process?

HAD29

Pay it am afraid. The council are correct, the machines aren't transferable and even if the sign was virtually legible, you were still able to read it and were aware that you had to obtain a ticket to park where you did. The value of what you paid is irrelevant, sorry. The car park, did you mean it was run by City Parking Glasgow? If so, they are a private company and any machine is theirs and nothing to do with the council. In so far as the machine concealed behind a hedge bit, if a parking attendendant was able to point it out to you, way down the street, then without knowing the exact circumstances, it didn't sound too hard to spot. If you are to appeal, then that would probably be the only grounds, in that you couldn't find the machine, but even then, if you can find no means of legitimately paying for the parking fee, you shouldn't actually park there.

maryhillgirl

PCN issued by City Parking (Glasgow) on behalf of Glasgow City Council. Car park where I purchased ticket also controlled/owned by City Parking (Glasgow). So the same people, surely?

HAD29

Hi there. I am not a parking expert, so this isn't expert parking advice. From what I understand, City Parking (Glasgow) are the outsourced parking management company for the council, and as such, act for the council. When you park, you are effectively entering into a contract. Each parking area, whether street, or car park has its own set of Terms & Conditions covering the use of that space. The machines are applicable to a specific parking area, and are calibrated to different amounts for different time limits and different Ts & Cs. Sounds harsh, I know, but as you used the wrong machine, you didn't technically have permission to park in that space, as you never entered into a agreement to park there. As I said before, I think the only avenue to dispute would be on the obscurity of the machine. Even then, if you could find no means of paying the fee to legitimately park in that space, you shouldn't park there (Unless the authority have waived the restrictions). Sorry, but it sounds like a bitter one to have to swollow. I haven't had any experience of appealing parking tickets, so I don't know if they just get fed up and drop the whole thing if you complain enough or not.

Not being someone who pays my council tax to Glasgow city council, I would say stick it to them!!

Coupon-mad

Wow, can't believe MSEers think a poster should just pay a Council PCN!

My advice? Always, always appeal a Council PCN!

There are so many grounds of appeal - Councils nearly always get things wrong in some way during the process - and pepipoo can help people get off most Council PCNS. In your case you have the obscured/unclear signage for starters, there may be more if you get help here (you will need to start a new topic with a 'washed' picture of BOTH sides of the PCN):

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

Oh, and if no-one on pepipoo mentions it, do be aware that most Councils decline most informal first appeals, seemingly simply 'because they can' and because they want the money.

So when you get your first rejection DO NOT think it's game over, instead show a scan or picture of the Council's letters you get, in another reply to bump your pepipoo thread and carry on appealing as far as the adjudicator.

Most people win who go that far, or the Councils fold, and all you risk is possibly being told to pay the fine (non-discounted) in the end. All or nothing gamble really, with the odds in your favour.

HTH

esmerobbo

Do as Coupon mad says post on Pepipoo, their answer to your informal appeal seems wrong to me, as you never transferred the ticket you purchased the incorrect one!
The transferring means you cant use the ticket in different locations or transfer it to another vehicle!

vax2002

Agree go to Pepipoo
the fact that you were unable to read signs and ended up with a fine may be the pulling thread.
The fact that 40% of appeals win shows that councils are more than aware that they collect illegal fines on purpose and will continue to do.

HAD29

I think if there are legitimate grounds to appeal a wrong decision, then someone should exhaust every means of getting the decision overturned in their favour. If someone is just trying to get out of paying a ticket because they made a mistake and don't want to pay the money, then I have no sympathy.

The lady made a mistake. She admitted the sign was legible, even if unclear, she knew the car park machine was different to the road parking, and a parking attendent pointed out the machine some way down the street, but possibly obscured by a bush, but none the less still visable seemingly.

Quote from this very site:
The parking laws are in place for safety and to help traffic flow, and should benefit us all. Yet mistakes happen, whether it's an unclear sign, technology faults, overzealous parking attendants or just an honest error. The aim of this guide is to prevent you being out of pocket, when most reasonable people would think the ticket is unfair.
Yet if you've blocked a school gate, parked on a zig-zag, or caused a huge traffic back-log by taking a break on a red run, sorry, there's no sympathy here and this guide isn't intended to help; and even if it did you'd have little chance of success.

I am very much against the attitude of just appeal something whether you are right or wrong just because you can. Take responsibility and the consequences for your actions.

blarb

HAD29 wrote: »

Take responsibility and the consequences for your actions.

Hello Mr parking authority sympathiser,

the "take responsibility and consequences for your actions" applies equally to the parking "authority". If they hide a meter behind a bush (or can't be bothered to trim the bush), and if the sign is very hard to read (as the poster actually said, rather than your weak effort at turning it around), then the "authority" has to take the responsibility for that action.

The driver paid more than the actual "fee" would have been and any normal person working for that authority with any common sense, and the use of the council brain cell, would have deemed it a reasonable mistake to make and just signed it off.

HAD29

Hello Blarb, thank you for that lovey description and greeting:D.

I don't sympathise with anyone to be honest. I am above all else in this world a pragmatist. I don't work for a council, nor know anyone that is a parkign attendant, or have any bitter or good experience of parking tickets to draw upon. Just becase it was an innocent mistake, doesn't mean that it was a mitigating circumstance to getting out of paying a ticket. Mistakes sometimes have to be paid for. If the council have been remis in holding up their end of the parking rules, then they are the ones that have to pay, not the parker.

If the good lady here has legitimate casue to question the validity of the ticket, or there were mitigating circumstances causing her to break the rules, then more power to her elbow in appealing. Using the wrong machine, even though she knew that one didn't apply to the street was a mistake.

pogofish

If its any help, I've had an Aberdeen ticket overturned on almost identical circumstances - The only machine I could see wan in an adjacent and more expensive zone, whilst the machine I should have used was away in the other direction and obscured by unkempt bushes.