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Liability Order
Comments
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manglesey25 wrote: »You cant.
Even if you did gio before a magistrate and get a quashing order, the CSA will only get another one.
Does the British legal system not allow for appeals anymore...? I want to appeal it and my argument i thought was a sound one, by there own admission they did not notify me, so therefor cannot be lawful.
As for applying for another, that is fine, because i can prove the amount is not right, and have a transcript from another court where they admit that they do not know the correct amount, so by default they cannot get another anyway. At least until they correctly assess the amount to the figures provided, at that point it is a mute point as they will owe me money and then a liability order is not something that will be possible for them.
I have had an accountant go over the payments, with a fine tooth comb, and he is willing to attend court if need be to give his reasoning as to the amounts according to there formula for assesing.
So appealing it is the way i want to go, ICE is not an option in my mind as it is not them that has the power to go back so far. A liability order has to be correct and there are case files where liability orders have been overturned because of this, i just need to know the best way to appeal.0 -
I will add that at no time did i ever avoid paying except by injunction, which i had for 16 months against the CSA and my Employer to stop money being taken, and it was in that court case that the CSA agreed with the judge that they did not know the true amount of so called debt owed by me. I provided paperwork for the injunction judge and she agreed the injunction should stand, which it did, they kept increasing the amount of debt against me until i resigned my job and i moved to Norway, which i was doing anyway... At that point i never contested the injunction anymore as it was irrelevant as i was not employed in the UK so it was a mute point.
I notified them of a change of circumstances again when i resigned my job, and as Norway was my home already, that it was now my permanent residence. I have NOT been reassessed since, and as far as i know the amount keeps climbing. I can prove notification my registered mail, and by way of recorded conversation with the CSA.
It seems that they choose when to get stuff and when to take into account and to cause as many problems as they can in the meantime...!
Good news, is that for 3 years my son would not talk to me at all because he had been brainwashed that i was avoiding it, that his mother never got any money from me etc etc. When i did get the chance to eventually talk to him, i gave him the file of what had been paid and what hadn't, and told him to make his own mind up...! It took him all of 30 minutes to see what had happened, and we both have a great relationship now. He has just turned 17 and is still in full time education, i provide for him, but in a different way, he has a credit card on my account and just buys whatever he needs, he also books his own flights as and when he wants to come and see me in Norway and talks to me every week by video.
It is amazing how kids can change if you don't push them but allow them to see the truth themselves. Ad he is disgusted with his mother for her actions but she is still his mother and loves her anyway, which i can understand, but he is angry she stole from him what could of been a normal relationship with his father for so many years.0 -
Does the British legal system not allow for appeals anymore...? I want to appeal it and my argument i thought was a sound one, by there own admission they did not notify me, so therefor cannot be lawful.
The only way is telephone the magistrates court and ask for an appointment to go before before a magistrate and say why the Liability Order should be quashed.As for applying for another, that is fine, because i can prove the amount is not right,
This will not work. The law specifically prevents magistrates from challenging the assessment itself. Section 33(4) of the Child Support Act 1991.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/48/section/33/enacted
It is contrary to Article 6, but there is no way of availing yourself to it becauase the UK has specifically opted out on matter concerning its social security policies including the CSA. If the responsibility of ther CSA transferred to HMRC for example, then quashing it is easy.and have a transcript from another court where they admit that they do not know the correct amount, so by default they cannot get another anyway. At least until they correctly assess the amount to the figures provided, at that point it is a mute point as they will owe me money and then a liability order is not something that will be possible for them.
I know this isnt what you want to hear. The court doesnt need to know how the amount arises to grant a liability order. If the assessment is wrong then the CSA will (should) repay you - with interest and the liability order becomes a nullity.
Im not sure why you have a hangup about the liability order itself. Its worthless in Norway and the majority of the EU. - back to Article 6 again - no trial.I have had an accountant go over the payments, with a fine tooth comb, and he is willing to attend court if need be to give his reasoning as to the amounts according to there formula for assesing.
Accountants are experts at tax matters, CSA is a whole new set of rules. The only experts is the Independent Case Examiner. There is also NACSA who have experts in CSA that can toothpick your case for a small fee. Be sure to collate and gather your case and your arguments before presenting a case to either, ICE or NACSA.So appealing it is the way i want to go, ICE is not an option in my mind as it is not them that has the power to go back so far.
The ICE can go back as far as it likes. Its the CSA that sets time limits, and only apply to CSA decisions. Time limits do not apply to correcting CSA mistakes and clerical errors.A liability order has to be correct and there are case files where liability orders have been overturned because of this, i just need to know the best way to appeal.
Only a magistrate or a higher court can make a quashing order, but this is NEVER done on the basis the assessment is wrong. ONLY if it can be shown the CSA failed to follow correct procedure in making the application for the Liability Order.0 -
I will add that at no time did i ever avoid paying except by injunction, which i had for 16 months against the CSA and my Employer to stop money being taken, and it was in that court case that the CSA agreed with the judge that they did not know the true amount of so called debt owed by me. I provided paperwork for the injunction judge and she agreed the injunction should stand, which it did, they kept increasing the amount of debt against me until i resigned my job and i moved to Norway, which i was doing anyway... At that point i never contested the injunction anymore as it was irrelevant as i was not employed in the UK so it was a mute point.
Its unusual to get an injunction on the CSA. If they are doing something unlawful that causes you harm or distress then you apply for a Restraining Order.I notified them of a change of circumstances again when i resigned my job, and as Norway was my home already, that it was now my permanent residence. I have NOT been reassessed since, and as far as i know the amount keeps climbing.
It sounds like the CSA has made a decision saying you have stopped working to deliberately deprive yourself of income to avoid paying child support.
If this is the case then you must stop the assessment continuing and stop further arrears accruing. The only way to do this is introduce change of circumstances. Sign on jobseekers allowance. Do it now, do it online.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Diol1/DoItOnline/DG_178228
Notify the CSA in writing and in duplicate. That stops any new liability accruing from today forward. Do not use recorded delivery, Get a certificate of posting.I can prove notification my registered mail, and by way of recorded conversation with the CSA.
It seems that they choose when to get stuff and when to take into account and to cause as many problems as they can in the meantime...!
Good news, is that for 3 years my son would not talk to me at all because he had been brainwashed that i was avoiding it,
Get advice on a Prohibited Steps order, Courts take a dim view of this and could amount to child abuse.that his mother never got any money from me etc etc. When i did get the chance to eventually talk to him, i gave him the file of what had been paid and what hadn't, and told him to make his own mind up...!
Wait untuil he is 18. Children dont really understand parental disputes.
If you want to see your son, get a Contact Order. If you do decide to sign on JSA, complete a form EX160 Fee remission - its usually free. Ditto any other court order. Think about how you would like the contact to take place before completing the application form.It took him all of 30 minutes to see what had happened, and we both have a great relationship now. He has just turned 17 and is still in full time education, i provide for him, but in a different way, he has a credit card on my account and just buys whatever he needs, he also books his own flights as and when he wants to come and see me in Norway and talks to me every week by video.
If he is 17, then a contact order might be pontless.It is amazing how kids can change if you don't push them but allow them to see the truth themselves. Ad he is disgusted with his mother for her actions but she is still his mother and loves her anyway, which i can understand, but he is angry she stole from him what could of been a normal relationship with his father for so many years.
Unfortunate the UK is fairly unique that it gives fathers a bad deal and allows mums to denigrate dads. No politician has the nerve to do anything about it.0 -
This will not work. The law specifically prevents magistrates from challenging the assessment itself. Section 33(4) of the Child Support Act 1991.
However section 33(3) states..."shall make the order if satisfied that the payments in question have become payable by the liable person and have not been paid."
This in itself means that any doubt and the liability order cannot stand anyway... And by way of NEVER overturned, there are cases, this is one that i found, but i don't understand it so well... Haha
PJG v Child Support Agency [2006] EWHC 423 (Fam)
http://www.mensaid.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=14150 -
Thats an interesting find.
Why dont you approach the magistrate and ask for a quashing order citing the precedent.
You have nothing to lose.0 -
I think i may have to do that... Haha But on writing to them last time they did not appear interested..! But this may change things slightly if they know that i am going to go above there heads and make them look stupid, i may even include this for there consideration in making that decision...
It sounds like the CSA has made a decision saying you have stopped working to deliberately deprive yourself of income to avoid paying child support.
As far as that goes, i had been living in Norway for the previous 18 months and commuting for work which was extremely stressful, i already have proof of notification that there was a change in circumstances, and the reason i left was for reasons other than the move, i had an accident at work and was signed of sick, with contracted sick pay, which my employer stopped...! And i could not appeal the stopped payments unless i returned to work, as they had done this on a previous occasion and had been told by the employment tribunal this was unlawful i contacted a solicitor and he advised i resign my employment meaning i no longer have to abide by there appeals process and take them to court again. Which is what i have done. The intention would of been to leave later this year, but it just moved it forward. I CANNOT claim benefits in the UK as i am not resident there, on the plus side i am not liable for tax there either, which is now in writing as i have no employment i am resident abroad which has been confirmed with the Inland Revenue, so when the employment tribunal eventually gets heard they will not be able to tax me on that as earnings...0 -
If the CSA is still charging you money even though you are not in the UK. You MUST put in a change of circumstances. If the CSA doesnt accept them, I'm afraid you will have to sign on. The CSA cannot rebuke a JSA claim.
Use anyones address - with their permission. Once you finish signing on and the CSA has stopped charging, any subsequent CSA mail can be returned DLO with a further change of circs - you go back to Norway.
Once done, then work back to the begining and find where the CSA got it wrong and get them to put it right. If the CSA wont, then you can stay in Norway and you and the CSA can agree to disagree and the matter is closed.
If you are in Norway peramently, then I dont understand why you are fretting about the liability order. It will come to nothing.0 -
So i commit a fraudulent application to stop them from correctly assessing me....? Never going to happen, i will NOT sink to there levels of receipt to stop them.
If they want to assess me wrongly, it is just more evidence when i eventually get into a court room to prove there wrongdoing. And at the moment the more they do that is wrong the more i have to go after them for harassment. It may cost me to do this, but there system is wrong and the people behind it are breaking the law... That does not mean i have too as well..! The fact that the inland revenue have accepted my change of circumstances and notified me that i am no longer liable for UK tax, and the recorded delivery proving i notified them of change of circumstances should be more than enough proof of the wrong assessment...!0 -
Why is it a fraudulent application? you say you are not working? you have a right to claim JSA.which is now in writing as i have no employmentIf they want to assess me wrongly, it is just more evidence when i eventually get into a court room to prove there wrongdoing.
Getting into a court room to fix a wrong assessment requires you to use the ICE first (apparently - dont quote me this) then proceed to a tribunal. There are time limits for appealing a decision, but no time limits to correct a clerical error. There is no other way.And at the moment the more they do that is wrong the more i have to go after them for harassment.
How has the CSA harassed you? A wrong assessment isnt harassment, its a mistake, at worst, if a CSA official tries a cover up then its fraud or corruption. If you want to go down the fraud route, then you contact your MP and he can put your case to the SFO. They have investigative expertise and special powers to assess your evidence, prosecute fraudsters and compensate victims.It may cost me to do this,
It costs nothing.but there system is wrong and the people behind it are breaking the law...
If you are 100% sure of that, then collate and gather supporting evidence and approach your MP.That does not mean i have too as well..! The fact that the inland revenue have accepted my change of circumstances and notified me that i am no longer liable for UK tax, and the recorded delivery proving i notified them of change of circumstances should be more than enough proof of the wrong assessment...!
The CSA will take no notice of what HMRC accepts. Their position is you are not working (in the UK) and no tax is due.0
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