My Music Venue Endeavour Diary Thread.

Sicksorry

Hello Folks,
For almost 10 years now I have been an active member of my local music scene. From playing well over a few hundred gigs with various bands to promoting sold out shows and volunteering in local Rehersal studios, it's fair to say I've had my hands dirty with the music scene for some time now. During this time I have seen many a music venue around here rise and fall and I've often wondered if I could do things a little differently by taking various working elements from each of these places and applying it to my own. Over the past few months I've discussed this idea with various people and just what It would take to open up my own Music Venue. The response has been good so far, but I worry many people will encourage and push me simply for the sake of getting a new venue open in their town and so I need frank advice from faces who will in no way benefit from this venture to ensure It's honest and reliable.

From tomorrow onwards, I shall be diving into this with both feet. Up until now, I've been collecting information, swotting up on licencing laws and the such and now I want to start putting gears into motion. I would like to use this thread as a place to collect my thoughts, track my progress and gain some frank and honest advice from like minded people. I've had some thoughts on everything from funding to creating the perfect business plan etc, which I'll start sharing with you all over the next few days. For now I want to put this out there to get some discussion on the general idea going.

One thing I could make use of for now, is any helpful links in regards to employment legislation and such. I am based in Scotland, so I'd need to make sure any information applies shared to Scots Law in case it happens to be slightly different from general UK laws.

Regards,

Rick,,

lincroft1710

Sicksorry wrote: »

During this time I have seen many a music venue around here rise and fall

The first thing I'd be doing is finding out why they all closed.

Horace

I would also be finding out why music venues closed. It could be that there is no market for them or they have been closed because of drunkeness or drugs or even noise. Yep, a venue can lose its music licence if they have inadequate soundproofing and local residents complain about the noise especially if a band is playing beyond 10pm.

When you say you have discussed the idea with various people - are they your friends and family? If so, then I would be seeking advice from less biaised people because friends & family will agree with you no matter what even if your idea is bad.

Funding might be a problem as there are no grants out there.

For a venue, you will need public liability insurance, you will certainly need licences from the council to allow for musical performances (and you need to specify that it will be live music), you will need a drinks licence if you are serving alcoholic drinks. There are a lot of things to consider. I do not know Scottish Law so maybe you need to have a chat with a solicitor or your local sherrif's office?

paddyrg

One thing I will point out which will rear its ugly head at some point, better it is on paper here, clear, and upfront. Venues are absolute gangster magnets. Many nightclubs make a loss but exist to launder drugs and prostitution money. You will have local 'security companies' wanting a fee to 'run your door'. You need to be able to survive in this environment, like it or not. You may find after 'door fees' that you're not making the money you would hope for (and so go out of business like the other venues).

Also, do you have experience as a licensee? The local licensors will want to see you're a fit and proper person, and experience of management in a licensed premises will be a part of that, especially for a 'venue'.

Remember fly posting - idiot promoters will flypost your venue name around town on their posters - it's you who gets the calls from the council.

Margins are LOW - if you're looking to promote shows (and if you have promoted in the past you will know this) the average margin is about 7%. Maybe 12% if you are really lucky. 'Proper' acts will require a guaranteed fee, then take 85% of net over the deal capacity. Famous promoters have been bankrupt, it really hinges on if you can get the shows underwritten by an investor, otherwise it just takes one bad show to close you down.

Sicksorry

Horace, You're exactly right, and thats why I decided to start posting ideas about it here. I met an ex manager of a music venue I frequented often the other week and he said to me that all I will ever hear from local bands, friends and family is the word "yes".

It's a worry I have considered Paddy, but It's a bridge I'll have to cross should it present itself down the line. I won't be open as a nightclub and if I ever did apply for a license to run it as such down the line it wouldn't be your typical dance music either which from experience are the clubs with all the problems around here in those regards.

In terms of Experience as a Licensee, I have none as of yet. I'm hoping to do a lot of Bar work and such In the run up to everything coming together, and I'm hoping that my planning of this, and the fact that I've never been in a spot of trouble in my life, will go in my favour.

When promoting well known touring acts in the past, I will be up front and say I can count the times on one hand where I actually made money. Most often than not I would break even, and on a few occasions I had to empty my bank account to clear up my own mess. It has been a costly learning experience thats for sure and I wouldn't be looking to book any band that could break my business in one fell swoop.

As for Fly Posting, I can only hope my warnings to bands and the like are listened too. There doesn't seem to be much of a problem for it around here luckily as most shops are good in that they allow you to put posters up in their windows and the council has free information boards around the city centre dedicated to live events.

paddyrg

Sounds like you're really thinking this through, and this will be what will make all the difference. You will need an entertainment as well as alcohol license so whilst taking bar work, take it at a similar venue and learn from the duty managers there.

If you're open outside pub hours, you will likely find some people will want to rock up at kicking out time, and then you're in nightclub circles with all the associated problems. If you're only open pub hours, how will you make a profit when pubs are closing all over the shop?

Promotors, you're a brave lot. I've seen it from 2 sides, we had one promoter (for a still popular 80's act) who hadn't got the experience and thought they could pay the fee out of ticket sales. It was only because the artist (after the show) was extremely generous that the promoters didn't lose their houses (they were trying to do a fundraiser show, they could barely cover the flights and hotels in the end). But if you have a profitable market sector, then stick with it! Respect to you :-)

One final option - instead of buying/leasing a venue, then having all the stress of running a pub/learning license etc., why not do a deal with a pub to 'run' their backroom. They get the bar take (based on a guaranteed minimum), you get exclusive use of their backroom/function room to do with as you please.

Have a look at The Catapult Club in Birmingham http://www.thecatapultclub.net/about/ - I used to know Arthur years back when he was getting established, now he seems to be running promotions at multiple venues across the city. Really nice guy too, so it is very possible to build a business from promotion, but I don't think he will be trying to do that plus running a bar, of you get my drift.

Sicksorry

If I did go for Late hours, I'd aim to do something similar to what Moorings in Aberdeen are doing, sure, it's open til the early hours, but it still feels like a pub/music venue and not a dark, loud club. I am meaning to head up that way soon and see if they are willing to have a wee chat about is working for them and what problems comes with it etc.

In terms of keeping in business I'd look to keep as competitive a drinks price as possible, maintain a well stocked and varied bar and try to book bands that were of interest to the public and avoid putting on repetative local band bills (I seen this method sink a cracking little local pub who decided to jump feet first into doing live music). Another place around here recently, was pretty much giving their drinks away and while that may have made them a slightly higher net profit in the long run, the problem came with the idiots who trawled in, got drunk and smashed the place up every other weekend. I guess it comes down to working out the right balance of acts to promote and drinks prices and this is an aspect I'm going to sit and work out best I can over the coming months. I know a lot of it will simply come down to how the economy and such are doing as well around the time I'm aiming to open and while, I can't control that I'll certainly aim to work with it.

I think my sorest hit a few years back was promoting two shows in one week, both were Amercian bands and one had previously just visited 3 months earlier which I had a very successful night on. I promoted them at different venues and with the same style of Music being played and Flyer being used I confused fans of both bands as to what night and where each band was playing. I ended up taking at hit of around £1000 and I lost to important contacts. Lets just say that was a lesson well learned.

I'll get a look at the Catapult Club website too, It rings a bell from my days booking tours for small bands. I remember seeing them on Myspace quite a bit.

Horace

Arthur has a very good reputation in Birmingham, I came across him when I was managing a rock band for a while.

Gleeful

Have a look at the Mad Ferret in Preston, I think that is the sort of thing you are looking at. They do really well.

paddyrg

Horace wrote: »

Arthur has a very good reputation in Birmingham, I came across him when I was managing a rock band for a while.

That is so nice to hear - when the Catapult Club was in the backroom of the pub I worked in, Monday nights were by far the best nights of my week! I got to work that backroom bar, usually on my own, listen to the music (which was admittedly a mixed bag) and enjoy the night! The other nights of the week I was in the main bars of quite a rough pub, but Arthur and I would enjoy a nice cig (back when I smoked!) and a chat at the end of the night on Cat Club nights.

Horace, you have many roles and skills, how did you get on with management? I work indirectly for a management company now, on tour production, but it seems to me that artist management is one of the areas I really ought to look at for the future.

Gamble_2

Hi Sicksorry,

This is somewhat my area of expertise as I've recently bought a live music venue/nightclub down south which previously had a bad reputation and was on the verge of being shut down by the council.

Having experience in promoting nights and contacts within the entertainment industry is a far cry from running your own venue.

There are so many potential pitfalls to this I don't even know where to begin.

First off, lets look at premises.
What are the rental and business rates figures?
Does it have a decent smoking area?
Is there residential housing nearby?
Does the place have sound and lighting and is it adequate?
Does it have a cloakroom/box office/space to provide one?
Does it have enough stock room space?
Pre-fitted python system?
Till system in place?
What's the capacity?

Next up is financials.
Other things you will most likely be paying on a monthly basis:
Rent
Business rates
Insurance - PL, EL, Buildings & Contents, Stock.
Waste removal
Cleaning services
Stock (I pay for stock on a 2 weekly DD)
Staff wages
Repayments on any finance you may take out to fund this
PRS & PPL
Accountant fees
Security fees if you use an outside company

A note on security - some small venues don't bother, most do. I'm lucky in the respect that I'm good friends with the owner of the firm which runs my door so I know all the doormen he supplies me are high quality.

If you don't have good doormen, there will inevitably be fights, glass will be broken, drugs will be taken, police attention will be drawn to you and you will get closed down.

Stock
How much fridge space does the bar have?
Which drinks sell well in the area?
What deals are other bars doing?

Price vs volume - My place sells 2 Jagerbombs for £3.50, that's the best deal in town. Sure the markup isn't as high as I could get, but on some nights I go through 35-40 bottles of Jager at which point the small markup becomes irrelevent as I'm making a killing anyway.

Don't make the same mistake as the previous owners of my establishment made, they tried to cater for every taste right up to champagne at £95/bottle.

1 premium lager on tap or 2 if you have room for 2 taps, if not have a second lager option in bottles or cans. All the standard spirits, don't get anything more exotic than Malibu. Alcopops are a winner and you can get inventive with the deals and combinations (pitchers/jugs).

Don't worry about not having something that someone asks for, they will drink something else instead.

A few things to start you off, feel free to pick my brains about it if you have any more questions.