Project managing/costing a renovation

Clearlier

Hi, the OH and I are looking at buying a house in need of renovation. We brought a builder round for our second viewing to try and get an idea of what it would cost (as well as reading endless pages on this forum and other sites). He came recommended indirectly by a colleague of the OH. We've since discovered that he doesn't actually do any building himself but acts as a project manager. This unfortunately is reflected in his quote which is very vague, tells us that it includes our contingency... :rotfl:and utterly fails to take into account what we were asking for and includes things he thought were a good idea but we said we didn't want!

I'm wondering what are the pitfalls of me acting as project manager? I work part time from home with the flexibility to work whenever I like and could manage 4 - 6 hours on site each day. I know little about building. I've worked as a project manager in IT but that's basically common sense.

I'm also trying to estimate costings. The house is approx. 27' x 26' arranged as a 3 bed detached although one side is attached to the neighbours garage and is on the south coast to the west of Southampton. We've identified that the following needs to be done and estimated what it would cost:

Roof - 7 - 8 tiles missing, similar number loose. £1.5k. N.B. There is no felting or other barrier on the roof but we may convert the loft in a couple of years and would do felting then. If we didn't would it cause resale difficulties?
Kitchen/Diner - Knock through a 6' gap from the kitchen to the diner, would need a RSJ. £2k
Windows - 4 bay windows with 5 panels each frame measuring 1'9". 6 standardish size windows. £8k
Rewiring - Don't know that this is necessary but if it were we'd need about 50 points including lights, sockets and kitchen appliances. Consumer unit was estimated by the builder to be 10 - 15 years old. £3.5k for the wiring to include a consumer unit
Bathroom - New suite, flooring, tiling. £2k - aware that this price could be extended out ad infinitum

There are other costs for kitchen, carpets, curtains, decorating etc. which we're reasonably comfortable with.

I would really appreciate any thoughts or advice on the above numbers.

Thanks!

Clearlier

Bumping in the hope that someone can reply.

Are the costs that we estimate reasonable?
Is there any reason why a Joe Soap shouldn't project manage a renovation?

Thanks in advance!

teneighty

From the work you describe I cannot see the point of appointing a "project manager", just get quotes yourself from individual trades to do the various jobs.

Your estimates seem slightly on the high side and if you are considering a loft conversion in a couple of years I would only spend a minimum on the roof to get it weathertight, say £500 max. for replacing/refixing a few tiles.

mkaibear

Clearlier wrote: »

Hi, the OH and I are looking at buying a house in need of renovation. We brought a builder round for our second viewing to try and get an idea of what it would cost (as well as reading endless pages on this forum and other sites). He came recommended indirectly by a colleague of the OH. We've since discovered that he doesn't actually do any building himself but acts as a project manager. This unfortunately is reflected in his quote which is very vague, tells us that it includes our contingency... :rotfl:and utterly fails to take into account what we were asking for and includes things he thought were a good idea but we said we didn't want!

I'm wondering what are the pitfalls of me acting as project manager? I work part time from home with the flexibility to work whenever I like and could manage 4 - 6 hours on site each day. I know little about building. I've worked as a project manager in IT but that's basically common sense.

I'm also trying to estimate costings. The house is approx. 27' x 26' arranged as a 3 bed detached although one side is attached to the neighbours garage and is on the south coast to the west of Southampton. We've identified that the following needs to be done and estimated what it would cost:

Roof - 7 - 8 tiles missing, similar number loose. £1.5k. N.B. There is no felting or other barrier on the roof but we may convert the loft in a couple of years and would do felting then. If we didn't would it cause resale difficulties?
Kitchen/Diner - Knock through a 6' gap from the kitchen to the diner, would need a RSJ. £2k
Windows - 4 bay windows with 5 panels each frame measuring 1'9". 6 standardish size windows. £8k
Rewiring - Don't know that this is necessary but if it were we'd need about 50 points including lights, sockets and kitchen appliances. Consumer unit was estimated by the builder to be 10 - 15 years old. £3.5k for the wiring to include a consumer unit
Bathroom - New suite, flooring, tiling. £2k - aware that this price could be extended out ad infinitum

There are other costs for kitchen, carpets, curtains, decorating etc. which we're reasonably comfortable with.

I would really appreciate any thoughts or advice on the above numbers.

Thanks!

Get 3 quotes for each bit from tradesmen, that will give you some advice on numbers. From my admittedly small experience, these look reasonable.

And yes, it's perfectly possible to be your own PM.

ormus

your prices are ok ish apart from the windows.
thats far too much. more like 4k budget.

Clearlier

ormus wrote: »

your prices are ok ish apart from the windows.
thats far too much. more like 4k budget.

Thanks Ormus. I don't suppose you have any tips on how to get that kind of price?

Thanks to all who answered. While I 'knew' that the price the builder gave was off the wall there was still a small part of me wondering whether I was just being too optimistic about pricing (builders prices were more than double what I've estimated).

phill99

Ormus is right - your prices are about right except for the windows, although I'm not sure £4k is right. Bays are always expensive.

There are advantages to having a PM when there are many trades working together. There is a skill in knowing who is responsible for what and when it gets done. Importantly, the PM has the Big Picture and is normally the person who has an understanding of what the client is trying to achieve. The individual trades don't have a handle on what the overall scheme is. The PM will know who to have a gop at if something is going wrong.

Also, I'm a great advocate of the phrase 'The devil is in the detail'. That detail has to be owned by someone and its normally the PM. I've been to many jobs where a tradesman has done what he has been asked to do, and done a prefectly functioing job, but he hasn't done it in a way that is appropriate to the next trade coming after him and the functionality of the job is completely unacceptable aesthetically.

There are many people on here who would say you don't need a PM or you can do it yourself. But the difference in terms of quality and outcome between an unmanaged project and a managed one is significant.

Clearlier

Thanks Phill99. It's always useful to have an opposite perspective. I described project managing as common sense in my own field and it is.... so long as you know the area. I imagine it's similar in building. We probably will make an offer on this house and if we're successful we'll get several quotes for each of the jobs. We'll mitigate the risks you outlined as best we can with extremely detailed planning and as much research as possible.

pinkteapot

Are you going to live in the house while the work is done, or do you want to have all the work done and then move in?

If the latter, you need to be more organised to get it done quickly. I still wouldn't bother with a project manager for the list of work given but you might want to think about it depending on how many hours you work, whether you can skip out of the office to phone and chase trades, etc.

If you plan to move in and do the work bit by bit then definitely save the PM money!

Get a decent survey done on the house in case anything else needs doing that you haven't realised.

I also don't know where people on the forums get their double glazing done so cheaply. A couple of years ago I had five windows replaced in a flat (including one square bay) and that was about £2.5k IIRC. Had a few quotes and beat them down on price (I'm in the south-east).

We did up a main bathroom, en-suite and cloakroom for about £7k all in last year so your bathroom budget looks reasonable.

Do you also plan to redecorate? Paint, new carpet and curtains add up if needed throughout the house. I'm currently redecorating our house (four bedrooms, hall/stairs, lounge, dining room) and am working on spending £5-6k (doing the painting myself except for above the stairs).

Clearlier

pinkteapot wrote: »

Are you going to live in the house while the work is done, or do you want to have all the work done and then move in?

It's a good question. We would want the roof, kitchen/diner and any rewiring to be done before we move in. The in-laws have very kindly offered to cover the rent in our current place for a couple of months so we'll take that and get as much done as we can. I think that we should be able to get most of what we want to get done in that timeframe.

pinkteapot wrote: »

If the latter, you need to be more organised to get it done quickly. I still wouldn't bother with a project manager for the list of work given but you might want to think about it depending on how many hours you work, whether you can skip out of the office to phone and chase trades, etc.

I think organisation will be the key - it is in most projects. I'm lucky enough to have an incredibly flexible job at the moment (not very well paid but that's another issue). I also work from wherever I want provided I have internet access. The very first thing that I'll be doing is getting broadband :-)

pinkteapot wrote: »

Get a decent survey done on the house in case anything else needs doing that you haven't realised.

I fully intend to. There's a boarded up fireplace that I'm a bit concerned about and I'm going to see if I can get a surveyor that can specifically advise on that as well as doing a general survey rather than somebody who'll just say that it should be looked at.

pinkteapot wrote: »

I also don't know where people on the forums get their double glazing done so cheaply. A couple of years ago I had five windows replaced in a flat (including one square bay) and that was about £2.5k IIRC. Had a few quotes and beat them down on price (I'm in the south-east).

Sounds to me like you did pretty well there. I probably should have given a little more detail about my windows which I should have said are bow rather than bay and there's a bit of work to be done above the frame. That said, I found windows by far the hardest item to estimate price on because such wildly varying amounts are mentioned and none of the firms publish what they actually charge.

pinkteapot wrote: »

Do you also plan to redecorate? Paint, new carpet and curtains add up if needed throughout the house. I'm currently redecorating our house (four bedrooms, hall/stairs, lounge, dining room) and am working on spending £5-6k (doing the painting myself except for above the stairs).

Thanks for the warning. Paint, carpets and curtains are in our budget. With the exception of skimming which my OH thinks will be necessary throughout but I don't, I plan to do it all myself. We'll focus mainly on functionality initially so curtains in the bedroom, good underlay but cheap offcuts for carpets where necessary, some kind of magnolia paint throughout. Once we've been in the house for a year we should have a better idea of how to decorate it.

Anyway, I'm getting a bit ahead of myself. We haven't even made the offer yet. The great thing is that I now believe it's feasible from a financial point of view.

pinkteapot

LOL, well, good luck with the purchase.

I'm all for buying houses that need work. I have learnt that I like to redecorate a house even if it's in pristine condition, just to make it mine. Will never bother paying for a freshly renovated place!