Private school vs state school

kendun

Hi folks,

I am after a bit of advice/ suggestions about future education for my kids and would appreciate your input. I have settled in the UK as an adult and therefore don't know much about the education system here. I was informed by some colleagues that normally private school education/ Grammar school education tends to be better than state school education. Is this the norm?

I did look at OFSTED reports for local free schools and the school with the best report specifies that children need to be from a christian family with atleast one parent being a regular church goer, so this rules us out. I did think of moving to an area with good schools in Bolton but other than the church school which is nearly on par with the private school, the other schools' results are not that great from a results perspective.

I am planning to start saving to be able afford private education - I do know that it's going to be expensive but feel that giving them a good start in life from a educational perspective will benefit their future. I used to think that if children are intelligent / keen regardless of whether they go to a state school or a private school they'll suceed with their future but views /opinions from colleagues about private school being better has left me confused.

What do you folks think?

I know this isn't a strictly money saving thread but couldn't find any other appropriate section + apologies if this has been discussed in the past and please direct me to that thread.

ThinkingOfLinking

I went to a state primary school and had a nightmare of a time.
I won a scholarship for a private secondary school and life was much better. So, don't worry about the money side of things; there are various scholarships and bursaries available to bright/gifted students.

sexymouse

Having been to both state and private schools and having taught in both as well, I think it very much depends on the schools as to the quality of the education. Private schools sometimes struggle with keeping resources updated as they rely on fees as their incomes, whereas the state schools obviously get their funding from the local authority. I found when teaching in a private school (granted it was small) that special educational needs weren't as well catered for, despite there being smaller class sizes etc. State schools seem to provide many more intervention programmes if children are struggling. Private schools did get more opportunities to do music and sporting activities though, and had specialist teachers for certain subjects.

Kira000

Not sure if i have misunderstood your post OP. Grammar schools ARE state schools, and are free, they are just a different type to comprehensive, technical colleges, or secondary moderns. It just depends on what type of school you want for your child, which SHOULD depend on what will suit them. If your child is of an academic nature, then a good grammar school is a good option. If they are not academic, and not all children are, then a more skills based/vocational education might actually suit them better. Private schools can vary alot- generally they can give more individual attention, which some children find very helpful, some find stifling!
I went to a grammar school that gets excellent results, and did quite well- but it would have been totally unsuitable for someone who didnt enjoy academia. So have a think about what will be the best fit for your children, not what you want them to do.

thegirlintheattic

It all depends on your child and the school. Private is not automatically better than state. Some things to think about:

- Research has shown privately educated children do no better (and sometimes worse) than state students at university.
- Private schools often use out-dated resources due to a lack of spare cash
- Private schools often have smaller class sizes and better behaviour.
- Private schools spend more time on university prep and coaching.
- Your child may feel out of place if your income is lower than other student's income at the school. For example, my OHs friends at private school all got new cars at 17 for b-days, OH was the odd one out because his parents couldn't afford new car + fees.
- The teaching and learning can be poorer at private schools as children have the work drummed into them and there are more teacher led activities. Most children learn more from doing it themselves.
- Children at private schools often have a less diverse social circle than those at state school.
- Consider the 'extras' of private education - lots of trips and sports, music lessons, contributions to textbooks/travel etc., expensive uniform and lunches. It all adds up. There is also a culture of employing tutors outside of school.
- SEN are often not supported at private schools as much as state schools. OH got to 15 before being diagnosed with severe dyslexia - private school did not notice :O, afterwards there was little specialist support.
- Private schools have a focus on results not what is best for the student. If your child is not academic this can disengage them from education.

kendun

Thank you Flickering Ember, sexymouse and Kira000,
Kira000, some of the Grammar schools like Manchester Grammar School, Bury Grammar School etc which are nearby are fee paying, hence the original post

kendun

Quite a bit of info in the responses, much appreciated folks.

Debbie_A_3

Hi Kendun,

I am a teacher and I have worked in both the state and the independent sectors. One of my children is in an independent school; the other two are in state schools. So I see both sides.

From my experience there is more variation within the sectors that there is between them. Good well-resourced schools with excellent teaching exist in both sectors. There are also dreadful independent schools just like there are dreadful state schools.

What you should do is choose the very best school for your child. If you are fortunate enough to have the means to pay fees then you will have more choice. Those who do not have the means are generally restricted to the state sector, though many independent schools offer bursaries and scholarships ... though these can be very competitive.

Good luck!
Debbie

Naf

Flickering_Ember wrote: »

I went to a state primary school and had a nightmare of a time.
I won a scholarship for a private secondary school and life was much better. So, don't worry about the money side of things; there are various scholarships and bursaries available to bright/gifted students.

Ditto. Although my time throughout most of secondary was only about OK (I tended to be an outsider up until my 6th form years, found I was more comfortable with younger pupils). I found that the teachers had loads of time for me because there weren't 300 other pupils wanting them at the same time (300 was my entire school, vs. that being just one year group in my sister's secondary). Teachers tended to be around 'till at least 5, so even if I stayed behind to get something done and found a question, I wouldn't have to wait. I found the facilities more than adequate, even though a lot of them were clearly very old (although this did also add character to the school and lessons). I also found much more support for doing other things - sport, DofE etc. I think one thing that private schools tend to pride themselves on is that they prepare you for life, they don't only 'just' get you to exam results. Some people leave not feeling this was the case (my two best friends for example), I really appreciated the school and its staff.
One thing in particular I found about the teaching (at mine) was that they didn't get you to the point where you could just recite off bits of the syllabus for answers. The teaching went into more depth than the actual exam was going to need, meaning that once you grasped what you'd been taught, you already knew what you actually needed to know because you understood something that went a little deeper into it. This has taught me a lot about the best ways for me to learn.

thegirlintheattic wrote: »

It all depends on your child and the school. Private is not automatically better than state. Some things to think about:

- Research has shown privately educated children do not better (and sometimes worse) than state students at university. Absolutely true; I knew a girl from my primary school who went to the local school which failed its ofsted, closed down and has now been amalgamated into the other nearby schools. She got straight 'A's and went to Cambridge. Equally there's people who came to the private secondary with me who have made little or nothing of themselves (thus far, I'm not one to write people off)
- Private schools often use out-dated resources due to a lack of spare cash. Whilst this can be true, it doesn't mean it's not up to the job; as I said previously my school had loads of equipment that was ancient, served us just fine. Just go to all the open days and compare.
- Private schools often have smaller class sizes and better behaviour. Smaller classes, yes. Better behaviour; not necessarily, but on the whole this is probably true. Parents are forking out for their kids to go and so the kids tend to be better brought up and if the parents hear of 'antics' they seem to take a harder line, as its their cash being squandered.
- Private schools spend more time on university prep and coaching. I can't compare directly, but going by my sisters' experiences this is definitely true. Mine positively encouraged all of us to take time off school to visit the unis, both for open days and private visits. Gave excellent advice on talking to admissions tutors etc.
- Your child may feel out of place if your income is lower than other student's income at the school. For example, my OHs friends at private school all got new cars at 17 for b-days, OH was the odd one out because his parents couldn't afford new car + fees. They might feel it, but bear in mind that usually the kids won't know, and teachers also aren't told. I didn't feel this very strongly, with the exception that the school organised what were essentially holidays each year (completely extra-curricular; ski trips and the like), and my family couldn't afford to send me. But plenty of other people didn't go too, so it never felt like an issue; I just would have liked to.
- The teaching and learning can be poorer at private schools as children have the work drummed into them and there are more teacher led activities. Most children learn more from doing it themselves. Really? I never found this. We did the vast majority of stuff ourselves, even things that seem quite trivial. I can remember making nylon, burning fingers on hydrating anhydrous copper sulphate crystals, doing something with the different forms of sulphur, plenty of titrations, reacting sulphur with iron filings, dissecting a fish's head and pig's trotter, burning peanuts (to determine calorific value), along with a host of others AND, I still have various Design Technology work from across the years, including my GCSE project (which I'm extremely proud of). Which reminds me: the GCSE work for DT was entirely our own choice (within reason for timescales and space), whereas a lot of the other state schools everyone makes the same thing, to make it easier to teach the large class.
- Children at private schools often have a less diverse social circle than those at state school. Possibly, but mostly only if they don't join in when other schools are involved. Particularly where music, chess and debating are concerned (sports you spend much less time meeting the opposition, and much more beating the *@#% out of them )
- Consider the 'extras' of private education - lots of trips and sports, music lessons, contributions to textbooks/travel etc., expensive uniform and lunches. It all adds up. There is also a culture of employing tutors outside of school. Yes, there is no doubt there is extra that you are expected to spend with regards to private school; but ask the school and they'll be able to give you budget suggestions.
- SEN are often not supported at private schools as much as state schools. OH got to 15 before being diagnosed with severe dyslexia - private school did not notice :O, afterwards there was little specialist support. It wasn't something I neede, but I can't say I did see much support for anything other than dyslexia at my school, and I have no idea how good or bad that was; seemed OK judging by some of my peers who clearly used it. Then again, the fact I can say they clearly used it perhaps means it wasn't so good, I don't know.
- Private schools have a focus on results not what is best for the student. If your child is not academic this can disengage them from education. I would tend to disagree. My school still ran with different 'sets' for maths, the lower set taking the exam that could only get them a C maximum, but gave them a better chance of doing so. I found much more emphasis on the individual to be honest. Teachers knew your name as standard, they didn't just learn it from you being so outspoken or a troublemaker. Every teacher made it very clear that their door was open and you cold always see them if you had any issues.

I'm not posting this to say you're wrong girlintheattic, just my experience differers to yours in some places, although not all as you can see.

OP: I'd suggest saving, of course; do it either way; but then see how your child grows and develops, what subjects they enjoy and how they react to learning. Visit all of the schools and see what they offer, take your child to see the schools and see what they like/dislike (although don't go completely by their reaction; I went to visit one local school, and on the basis of the silly things they allowed us to do on the computers, I decided I wanted to go there. It then failed its ofsted). The choice is a very individual one and personal to you and your child.

Sammy85_2

I am a firm believer that it is the parent that has a larger influence on their childs education than the school.

I went to a regular run of the mill state school (both primary and secondary) and achieved grades at both above the average results. I put this down to the fact my parents spent time each evening assisting with my learning and if i came home with a bad note in my planner i got punished again on top of anything the school handed out..

My best friends husband worked at an inner city school with bad results and now works at a private school. He too believes that the reason results are better at the private school is because more of the parents give a crap about their childrens education, they are afterall paying for it. He also said that the technology they have is way behind state schools, they dont get the funding for things such as ICT and resources are becoming further stretched as more parents get behind on fees in the current economic climate.

Just to add - the private school he is at now does alot more sports and out of school activities than his state school did. They far exceed the state school when it comes to providing an all-round education.

thegirlintheattic

Naf wrote: »

Ditto. Although my time throughout most of secondary was only about OK (I tended to be an outsider up until my 6th form years, found I was more comfortable with younger pupils). I found that the teachers had loads of time for me because there weren't 300 other pupils wanting them at the same time (300 was my entire school, vs. that being just one year group in my sister's secondary). Teachers tended to be around 'till at least 5, so even if I stayed behind to get something done and found a question, I wouldn't have to wait. I found the facilities more than adequate, even though a lot of them were clearly very old (although this did also add character to the school and lessons). I also found much more support for doing other things - sport, DofE etc. I think one thing that private schools tend to pride themselves on is that they prepare you for life, they don't only 'just' get you to exam results. Some people leave not feeling this was the case (my two best friends for example), I really appreciated the school and its staff.
One thing in particular I found about the teaching (at mine) was that they didn't get you to the point where you could just recite off bits of the syllabus for answers. The teaching went into more depth than the actual exam was going to need, meaning that once you grasped what you'd been taught, you already knew what you actually needed to know because you understood something that went a little deeper into it. This has taught me a lot about the best ways for me to learn.




I'm not posting this to say you're wrong girlintheattic, just my experience differers to yours in some places, although not all as you can see.

OP: I'd suggest saving, of course; do it either way; but then see how your child grows and develops, what subjects they enjoy and how they react to learning. Visit all of the schools and see what they offer, take your child to see the schools and see what they like/dislike (although don't go completely by their reaction; I went to visit one local school, and on the basis of the silly things they allowed us to do on the computers, I decided I wanted to go there. It then failed its ofsted). The choice is a very individual one and personal to you and your child.

I am giving generalities and my experience, it does depend on school and student, as I said.

Poor resources such as textbooks do present an issue when they contain out of data information, especially in some subjects. I recently visited a private school using geography books from 1980 in which the data was very out of date, the teaching I observed did not correct this and the erroneous data was found throughout the children's exercise books.

Also, when I said kids doing things for themselves I didn't mean subjects like science and D&T but subjects like history, geography, English. You can teach things by guiding your students to discover the answer for themselves or just tell them the answer and get them to answer questions. The former is better than the latter.

The setting you mention is common in the state sector. I'm not saying that private schools would enter you for the wrong exam level, but in many of the more academic private schools there is a pressure to achieve the best grades, even when students are not capable. Similarly to take certain subjects rather than to follow, in some cases, more appropriate paths such as vocational qualifications.

Just clarifying some of my points.