Help! Landlord went mad during checkout PT2

Morter

Hello again all,

I posted a thread a little while back (cannot link as I'm a new user -the title was "Help! Landlord went mad during checkout)

I waited 10 working days and then spoke to the letting agent who advised me that as they did not manage the property they would have nothing to do with the deposit. I spoke to The Dispute Service who advised that the only thing I could do was to dispute the entire amount as the landlord had not supplied a list of deductions and had blocked our email address. This was done at the start of August and had been accepted and they then notified the landlord of the dispute.

Last night we received an email from the landlord telling us that he would like to try and settle outside of the dispute service (unsuprisingly!) and he attached a list of deductions (over 1 month after checkout).

It's the list of deductions that has got me worried, he is claiming that we have completely smashed the bathroom sink, and is also trying to bill us for his time "managing the property" along with a charge for an additional inventory (which was completed without our knowlege).

I was present for the original check-out and nothing was said about the bathroom sink (as it wasn't smashed..) but am now concerned that if he has smashed it and taken a photo (which I wouldn't put past him given his previous conduct) then it will be our word against his. I don't have a copy of the check-out inventory as he snatched it from me and took it with him. I am trying to get a written statement from the cleaning company but feel they might not want to get involved (understandably). Does anyone know how these disputes are treated as it is purely our word against his...?

Thanks,

Chris

BitterAndTwisted

DO NOT negotiate with your landlord outside of the TDS arbitration process! The onus of proof is on the landlord to prove his position, not on you to prove otherwise. I would suggest that the reason why the LL is trying to negotiate with you is that they realise that their position is weak. Claim the whole of your deposit back through TDS and dispute any deductions which you think are unreasonable. Then let the arbitrators make the decision

sp1987

Morter wrote: »

Hello again all,

I posted a thread a little while back (cannot link as I'm a new user -the title was "Help! Landlord went mad during checkout)

I waited 10 working days and then spoke to the letting agent who advised me that as they did not manage the property they would have nothing to do with the deposit. I spoke to The Dispute Service who advised that the only thing I could do was to dispute the entire amount as the landlord had not supplied a list of deductions and had blocked our email address. This was done at the start of August and had been accepted and they then notified the landlord of the dispute.

Last night we received an email from the landlord telling us that he would like to try and settle outside of the dispute service (unsuprisingly!) and he attached a list of deductions (over 1 month after checkout).

It's the list of deductions that has got me worried, he is claiming that we have completely smashed the bathroom sink, and is also trying to bill us for his time "managing the property" along with a charge for an additional inventory (which was completed without our knowlege).

I was present for the original check-out and nothing was said about the bathroom sink (as it wasn't smashed..) but am now concerned that if he has smashed it and taken a photo (which I wouldn't put past him given his previous conduct) then it will be our word against his. I don't have a copy of the check-out inventory as he snatched it from me and took it with him. I am trying to get a written statement from the cleaning company but feel they might not want to get involved (understandably). Does anyone know how these disputes are treated as it is purely our word against his...?

Thanks,

Chris

The schemes are pretty tenant friendly as the landlord has to prove the deductions he wants to make.

If I were you, dispute it all.

The parts (I haven't read your previous threads) he can prove, reasonable deductions will be made for. The parts he cannot prove, no deductions will be made for.

As for this smashed sink, he will have to prove that you smashed it. If you didn't, how on earth will he prove it? He cannot have accurate photographs of a smashed sink when you moved out at checkout if it didn't exist. Have you had his list of costs via the deposit people (ie the official one he sends to them, not just whatever he thought he would email to you separately)?

His checkout will have to be done when you left, ie not days or weeks later when someone else (him) could have smashed anything up/muddied carpets/etc. No point documenting condition after someone has moved. One muddy viewer comes in, carpet ruined.

By chance did you take any pictures of the property when you moved out?

Did you sign a copy of the checkout form, if not, how will he prove it was agreed? Whichever one it was?

Just be really matter of fact when you write things. Dates, times, what was done, what was signed, what you have copies of, etc.

The cleaning company will probably not help you if he gives them lots of business. The cleaning company from our deposit claim said the oven was sparkling when we moved in (it was not and they also seemingly missed there being 5 bags of rubbish in this sparkling flat that they had left after their amazing deep clean, a broken toilet, oh and a 4ftx2.5ft to let sign, lol).

Some people are just plain odd.

Morter

Hi, thanks for the advice, I did advise him that we would only deal with him through TDS and he has not replied since.

The problem is that the way I see it, if he sends a picture of a smashed bathroom sink, we have no way of disputing it (I stupidly didn't take any photos before leaving, and he took the signed checkout inventory) as, as far as I'm aware once we have sent out initial statement and he sends his reply TDS do not contact us again and will just make a decision based on evidence provided?

When I spoke to TDS they just said it was a difficult situation and that we needed to try and get evidence that it wasn't broken when we left which hasn't filled me with confidence!

sp1987

Morter wrote: »

Hi, thanks for the advice, I did advise him that we would only deal with him through TDS and he has not replied since.

The problem is that the way I see it, if he sends a picture of a smashed bathroom sink, we have no way of disputing it (I stupidly didn't take any photos before leaving, and he took the signed checkout inventory) as, as far as I'm aware once we have sent out initial statement and he sends his reply TDS do not contact us again and will just make a decision based on evidence provided?

When I spoke to TDS they just said it was a difficult situation and that we needed to try and get evidence that it wasn't broken when we left which hasn't filled me with confidence!

Well your initial statement was quite comprehensive about damage which was/was not there, I presume? Has he even raised the broken sink with them yet?

It doesn't seem right that he can raise 'new' unknown to you damage (which it will be if you have not caused it) and win by default because you don't have the opportunity to pre-empt what will be claimed and defend it before accused?

If so, landlords could wait until tenants have asked for their deposit back then say everything is ruined, here are some google image pictures of a broken door, sink, bed, kitchen, etc and claim for those losses? Must be a means to avoid that situation where you have to defend before attack. If they are asking for more evidence from you surely you have a second go?

We did get a very nice 7 page summary of our case (over a £50 oven clean) from the arbitrator afterwards. Our deposit was dealt with by mydeposits.

Surely the evidence that it was not broken when you left is the 1 month it has taken him to complain about this broken sink to anyone, especially if he complained to you of other damage before? Is there an email where he says one lot of damage then comes back and says broken sink later in a second email, undermining his story? Send them copies of these emails if so? As surely a smashed up sink is more obvious than most damage? Who did the checkout, just landlord? They do say somewhere that the checkouts should ideally be done by someone independent from the landlord. Was it a check out clerk or just him?

InkZ

Was the sink mentioned on the signed checkout? If not, don't think he has a case.

Morter

No, the sink was mentioned at all, but he took the signed checkout from me so he has the only copy, and he has now produced a new inventory with different deductions on it to the ones agreed in person.

He never mentioned the sink in previous emails, he simply went on about finger marks on walls and other minor details (you'd have thought that a broken sink would have been more important!) and I think he might be trying to scare us into settling outside of TDS.

Thanks for your help all, I'm feeling a little more relaxed now, I never thought that a deposit dispute would be so stressful, just glad that the deposit protection system is in place or it'd be 10x worse!

kmmr

InkZ wrote: »

Was the sink mentioned on the signed checkout? If not, don't think he has a case.

But I think the issue is that the OP doesn't have a copy. So the LL could just change the details on the signed form, and say it was there when it was signed.

Edit: Sorry cross posted with above!
Edit 2: Here's the original thread:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/3357538

Morter

That's for posting that up, I hoped that I wasn't going to have to post another thread about this issue, wishful thinking!

Judith_W

Don't lose sight of the fact that if the condition of something is not mentioned on the inventory then they have no basis for claiming for damage for that item. I don't know how far this goes, can anyone advise whether if the sink is not stated to be in good condition then it can be assumed to be damaged before the tenants moved in? Long shot but just wondering..

Tirian

If the landlord does not comply with the requests and timings set out by The Dispute Service, then the case will be automatically decided in your favour.

My landlord refused to return our deposit, claiming various spurious grounds (including carpet stains that we had requested be cleaned before we moved in!!). Quite a cheek, considering the place was in a foul state when we moved in, with rotting food in the fridge - and, the piece-de-resistance, under a mattress lying on the floor in one bedroom, a plate with a rolled up $20 bill and white powder round the edges ...

Anyway, I invited him to meet me at the house at a time of his choosing to compare the state of the house with the photos I took on moving in, and explain what exactly was in worse condition. He agreed, and then got the estate agents to call me the day of the appointment to say that he couldn't make it (by this point he hadn't even bothered to specify how much of the deposit he proposed to deduct, or what for).

I filed a dispute. He never responded to the Dispute Service, and after waiting out the statutory period given for him to reply, the whole deposit was awarded to us by default.

I think he probably didn't realise that with the TDS he couldn't just use bully boy tactics and hold onto whatever he wanted. TDS is a big improvement, but the tenant still ends up without their deposit money for months if the landlord wants to be awkward. Supposedly you get back any money that's not in dispute straight away - but in our situation, because he didn't engage with the process at all, we were stuck without any of our deposit at all until the process was done.

Ridiculous, given that not only did we leave the place cleaner than when we moved in, but had also dug out all the trash and rubble from the front garden and planted it out with flowers, and installed three brand new smoke alarms (to replace the single non-working one that he had before). Sigh!