Council charging to park on beach

esmerobbo

Or in other words OOPs I think someone has sussed us!!

greenface

Thats a sorry we havent replied to you. But we are now with no information or anything useful.Now get off our backs becausewe havent got a clue.

English_Electric

Last night I decided to 'remind' barry Davies that he has not been back in touch as promised.
This morning, 'coincidentally' I received my long awaited reply as follows...
Further to our recent correspondence relating to the charges for access and parking on the beach at Morfa Bychan, the Council's power to charge a fee on motor vehicles parked on the beach at Morfa Bychan is derived from a covenant in a lease dated 5 October 1994 between the Crown, the Crown Estate Commissioners and Gwynedd Council’s predecessor, namely Dwyfor District Council, in respect of the foreshore in the Dwyfor area.

Under that lease, the Council may allow the parking of vehicles on the beach in accordance with its rules as to management and payment from time to time. Those rules are incorporated in the 'Black Rock Sands Beach Guide' and the ticket issued upon payment.

I trust that this answers your query.

Yours sincerely,

Barry Davies


Again he has not answered the enforcibility/ terms question so I replied...

"Dear Mr Davies. Thank you for your reply. I understood from your previous correspondence that the right to charge for parking on the beach exists, however, in my initial email enquiries, I asked for clarification on 'enforcibility' should the charges be legitimate.
On 06 August 2011 18:24 I asked... "could you please clarify the terms of parking and method of enforcement for me."

On [FONT=&quot] 13 August 2011 17:37 I asked...[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"Could you also inform me as to whether the current charge of £4 to park on the beach is enforcable under statute law and what is the fine for non payment.[/FONT]"

On 17 August 2011 15:57 I asked
"In short, my query is as to the enforcibility of these charges and whether any associated 'fines' are punitive."

In that you have repeatedly answered regarding the right of the council to charge (which was never contested since I merely questioned the legitimacy of the youth purporting to be an official collector yet not offering receipts or terms, arousing my suspicion) but not addresses the enforcibility or parking terms, I must conclude that this information is unavailable to you. If so, could you please provide me with details as to who I may contact by email ( as I prefer this method being hearing impaired and also since it affords a record of communication) so as to not take up any more of your valuable time and in order to gain an answer to the question of enforcibility and parking terms and conditions at the Black Rokc Sands Beach at Morfa
Bychan..
If however you do hold the information regarding enforcibility and terms and conditions of parking, could you please forward the information sio as to resolve my query?
Kind, regards,
Richard "

greenface

http://www.gwynedd.gov.uk/upload/public/attachments/841/Taflen_Morfa_Bychan.pdf heres the beach guide . Says nowt abowt payment... Keep at them fella

English_Electric

Still no reply re the terms Ts &Cs so I just fired this email off...

"Dear Mr Davies.
I have not received an answer to my previous emails regarding the terms and conditions and also the enforceability of the Gwynedd Council car parking charges at Black Rock Sands beach. You have merely asserted the right of the council to charge for parking, something I have not even contested.
If there are no terms and conditions under statute law or contract law, could you please also inform me. I ask this since authorities must make certain information routinely available, yet I am unable to source the information from Gwynedd Council website and from direct enquiry.
At this time (22/10/11), I now request the above information regarding the terms and conditions of the Council car parking on Black Rock Sands beach and also information regarding the enforceability of any parking penalty charges, that is to say, any statutes or laws which empower Gwynedd council to enforce charges and penalties. I request the aforementioned under the freedom of information act since I appear to have exhausted any means of obtaining the information voluntarily. I would prefer the information by email if possible but a hard copy by post would be acceptable if email is not possible."

SailorSam

All Councils are trying to get extra money from wherever they can these days, mine (Knowsley) started charging for the town car parks this year which have been previously been free.
I'm sure people have had to park on the beach at Southport for years and they only have a little man in a hut. (it may be a big man in a little hut)

greenface

SailorSam wrote: »

All Councils are trying to get extra money from wherever they can these days, mine (Knowsley) started charging for the town car parks this year which have been previously been free.
I'm sure people have had to park on the beach at Southport for years and they only have a little man in a hut. (it may be a big man in a little hut)

Dogging at Ainsdale is not a cheap as it used to be . :rotfl:

English_Electric

Just had these relies from Barry davies...
Email 1
Thank you for your e-mail dated the 22nd October 2011 regarding your enquiry that relates to the fees and charges that are payable for the parking of vehicles on the beach at Morfa Bychan.

I also note your concern and observation that we have not yet responded to your e-mail dated the 14th and the 17th October 2011. I regret that due to the significant number of enquiries that I receive on a daily basis I am not in a position to respond immediately to general enquiries. The Council’s expectation is that a response has been provided within ten working days (not including weekends) if possible. The e-mail that I received on the 14th October 2011 was received within this time period.

Please find attached further details relating to the terms and conditions of parking on the beach. These are clearly printed on the Parking Permit that is issued by our Beach Officers. I must further emphasise that all Beach Officers employed by Cyngor Gwynedd are clearly identifiable by the wearing of a specific dress code. Our officers do not deviate from this requirement.

With regard to your request for further information on the statutes or laws that empower Gwynedd council to enforce charges, this will be discussed with my colleagues from the Legal Unit and I hope that I will be able to provide further information as and when this information becomes available.
(end of email)



Email 2


I write further to my earlier e-mail of 24 October 2011.

You have enquired as to the Council's enforcement provisions in respect of parking charges at Morfa Bychan beach to which I further respond as follows;

If a driver refuses to pay the parking charge at the correct rate or at all, he or she will be parking on the beach without the Council's permission thereby committing an unlawful act of trespass. In those circumstances the Council reserves the right to bring a civil action against the driver in the High Court or County Court for damages and costs on the grounds of common law trespass.

Please note that the Council provides the parking facility on Morfa Bychan beach on a discretionary basis. The overwhelming majority of people who park vehicles on the beach do so lawfully in compliance with the parking charges. Should there be a deterioration in such compliance, the Council reserves the right to review its provision of parking at the beach altogether. We trust, however, that such action would not be necessary. (end of email)

I have not yet replied nor looked at the attachments but the bit I have highlighted in bold in Email 2 seems a bit dodgy to me. How can you trespass on a public right of way?
I will post the details in the attachments when I get chance.

HO87

Not that a council would ever make it terribly easy to check on their pronouncements but one presumes that Mr Davies is referring to the 1976 iteration of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act - there are others (as alluded to) - and specifically s.19. This would obviate the need for a TO/PPO and gives them carte blanche as far as settings rules is concerned. That being said one wonders how they would expect to pursue any infringements but if the charge is for all day access there are unlikely to be too many I suppose.

HappyMJ

English_Electric wrote: »

I have not yet replied nor looked at the attachments but the bit I have highlighted in bold in Email 2 seems a bit dodgy to me. How can you trespass on a public right of way?

You wouldn't really but you are talking about entering onto the beach with a car. The landowner is the crown and the leaseholder is the council and they allow free access on foot and civil case law extends that to pushchair's and dog's but the person/organization in charge of the land is requesting a payment if you wish to access it with a car. You don't have to pay it and the landowner doesn't have to allow you access. If you enter onto the land anyway they can bring a civil claim against you. They have admitted they wouldn't do that (probably due to the expense of claiming £4 from you) but would have to re-evaluate allowing vehicular access onto the beach ruining it for everyone.