Access to loans, grants, etc for 2nd time student

DrFluffy

Mr_Crafty wrote:

Crispy, appreciate your advice. Obviously we've thought extensively about this before she's applied - she has her interview next month. You can't study optometry part-time so that's a non-starter I'm afraid. When she finishes her degree she will have a well-paid job, and all our kids will be in school so we'll be alright long-term. Which is why she would prefer to have a student loan than scrabble around looking for grants. On that point, I don't see why the Access to Learning grant should be inaccessible. What's it there for? Our childcare costs are more than any single bill for any other student would be.

Fluffy, opthalmology and optometry are slightly different things but I know where you're coming from. We are not looking for hand-outs necessarily, but as she didn't take her loan during her first degree I don't see why she shouldn't take be allowed to take it now. She'll be better able to pay it back than a sociology, media studies or even nursing student....

On a general note, I think it's pretty ridiculous that someone who got a 1st distinction in Chemistry with one of the top marks in the UK during her year is having to re-train 10 year later. We could go to the US and earn a fortune, but we want to stay here, despite the lack of support for families.

Access to learning grant will be available to her, but it can not be used as sole funding - they look through 3 months of financial records, and if it clear she can't meet and could never meet the cost of the course, she may well be refused. Also, it can not be used to pay fees...

Crispy_Ambulance

Mr_Crafty wrote:

We are in Wales so the fees won't be that much. I've gone through the studentsupportdirect website and put all her information in, including the fact that she has already done 3 years of higher education and it says she is entitled to £4500 maintenance grant. Have you got any reason to think this is wrong?

I've been through the Access to Learning Grant thread, started by someone who used to work in Student Finance, and there's no suggestion in that thread that she would not be entitled to something.

At present she earns about £20,000, as an optometrist she'd start at about £35,000. I can't really see the sense in delaying it as she'll be forty by the time she finishes at the moment. Surely maximising our earning potential is best. We just want a little help to do it.

Like I said, we've thought very carefully about this - it's the best option whether we get help or not. And working in a university as I do, with post-grad students, I can't say your "fairies will bail me out" theory rings true at all.

Nobody is ENTITLED to Access to Learning Funds and it depends on the uni interpretation of the now very tight guidelines and your household income versus set figures for expenditure. She may be lucky and get an award, or she may not. It isn't worth relying on. And although you might not see a household income of £20K as large, it is when ALF calculations are made.

Without knowing exactly what figures were put into the website, it is hard to say if the grant figure is correct. My advice would be for your wife to contact the student advice centre at the students union at the uni she is planning to study at - they will be the best people to tell her what she might be able to receive. they will also know about any localised funding available.

And I work with students too - doing money advice. The number of students who want to do postgrad study who have given no thought whatsoever to how they are going to fund it is staggering. And admissions tutors often gloss over the funding aspect of it.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong in your wife wanting to do another degree. But it is far better to delay for a year or so and have all the finances in place than to have to drop out half way through due to financial pressures.

Mr_Crafty

I realise that you are giving me valuable advice, Crispy, but I can't really see where your coming from on this.

"Nobody is entitled to Access to Learning Funds" is an extremely negative view. Clearly the universities are given money to distribute to hard-up students. If there are more worthy causes than her then that's fine. Walking through the university every day as I do, I can't help thinking that students who have difficulty paying their rent after spending their loan are not AS ENTITLED as she would be if we had difficulty paying our mortgage for us and our 3 kids. Especially as she has been deemed not worthy to be given a loan in the first place. I've already said that we're not relying on hand-outs, so I don't see your point.

And the age of our kids does not put us in a position where our situation will be different in a few years time. My youngest has just started nursery so he'll be there for another 3 years, and the other 2 will be in school when she starts in uni. What's the benefit of waiting? So that she can qualify in time to retire?

And without sounding flippant, the figures I put into the website were THE CORRECT ONES. If the entitlement calculator is wrong then that's one thing, but just assuming that it's wrong without knowing my particulars is a bit annoying to be honest.

She has been told to contact the Finance people at the university once she's been offered a place. With my experience of higher education in 4 different universities (ongoing), I've advised her not to believe what they say, because most of the time they don't know themselves.

"than to have to drop out half way through due to financial pressures" - obviously the student finance and support systems work well then......

Voyager2002

Mr_Crafty wrote:

Hi all,
We've also been told that we're not eligible for Child Tax Credit (we have 3 kids) - it seems that no finanial help is available to us at all.

Is this right? More to the point, is this accurate?

Ta very much

I find this very strange. We receive Child Tax Credit, despite the fact that my wife is a student and my salary is more than 30,000.

Mr_Crafty

Does she work as well? I've been told that if you work 16 hours as well as being a student you can claim a lot more. We aren't entitled to anything linked to Working Tax Credit. Infact the amount we are entitled to in a year, through 'pure' child tax credit covers us for about a month so my original statement wasn't completely accurate.

Crispy_Ambulance

I put my answers in red below.

Mr_Crafty wrote:

I realise that you are giving me valuable advice, Crispy, but I can't really see where your coming from on this.

"Nobody is entitled to Access to Learning Funds" is an extremely negative view. Clearly the universities are given money to distribute to hard-up students. If there are more worthy causes than her then that's fine. Walking through the university every day as I do, I can't help thinking that students who have difficulty paying their rent after spending their loan are not AS ENTITLED as she would be if we had difficulty paying our mortgage for us and our 3 kids. Especially as she has been deemed not worthy to be given a loan in the first place. I've already said that we're not relying on hand-outs, so I don't see your point.

I am not giving you my opinion. I am giving you the facts. You are getting confused by this. There is no automatic entitlement to receive any money from ALF. An assessment is done where income is assessed against allowable expenditure. And an assumed income is very often used. There is very little leeway in the scheme and many unis are tightening up as they have to justify every penny spent. Awards are not necessarily made to the mostdeserving, but to those who come out with a shortfall and who fit the criteria. And those doing a second degree will come further down the list. And as I have already stated - this is how it is, not how I think it should be. I don't advise on what I reckon, I advise on the facts of the situation.

And the age of our kids does not put us in a position where our situation will be different in a few years time. My youngest has just started nursery so he'll be there for another 3 years, and the other 2 will be in school when she starts in uni. What's the benefit of waiting? So that she can qualify in time to retire?

It is practical advice to do a course when you can afford it. Don't shoot the messenger. If you don't like the legislation, have a go at your MP, not at me.

And without sounding flippant, the figures I put into the website were THE CORRECT ONES. If the entitlement calculator is wrong then that's one thing, but just assuming that it's wrong without knowing my particulars is a bit annoying to be honest.

You asked if it was correct. I told you I couldn't tell you that without knowing what you had put in. I at no point suggested that you were wrong or assumed it was wrong. I never advise on facts and figures without knowing all the relevent information. Please don't put words into my mouth, I am trying to help you.

She has been told to contact the Finance people at the university once she's been offered a place. With my experience of higher education in 4 different universities (ongoing), I've advised her not to believe what they say, because most of the time they don't know themselves.

I would agree with you on the university not knowing. That is why I advised her to contact the students union advice centre - they are staffed by trained advisers who DO know what they are talking about. Most of them are CAB trained.

"than to have to drop out half way through due to financial pressures" - obviously the student finance and support systems work well then......

Like I said, if you don't like the regs, lobby your MP. I didn't write the rules on student finance, but I don't believe in painting an inaccurate rosy picture to students either. I advise enough students with multiple debts and who have had to drop out because they can't afford the fees etc.

Mr_Crafty

When you say you are giving me the facts and not your opinion does this include "she won't be entitled to a fee loan or a maintenance loan"? This is at odds with the studentsupportdirect website.

I'm not confused by the Access to Learning grant. I am merely giving my opinion about it. If she's not allowed a loan (fact) she should be entitled to some of the support grants (opinion) - do you disagree with this? Or do you think some students should get a loan, fees paid and additional grants when others get nothing?

"I told you I couldn't tell you that (whether she was entitled to anything) without knowing what you had put in (to the entitlement calculator)"

At odds with your first reply. Which was "She will not be eligible for a fee loan or for a maintenance loan".

She CAN afford this course in the long-term - read my initial post. We want some short-term help in order that it doesn't cost more than it should.

"That is why I advised her to contact the students union advice centre" - it was them she spoke to. I suppose I should have made that clearer. They wouldn't give her any advice unitl she'd been offered a place. Really helpful that.

My wife and I have both already undertaken and finished degrees, I'm now completing a part-time distance-learning personally funded Masters at the other end of the country, while having a full-time university job and looking after 3 kids. I can't think of anyone less appropriate to advise that their idea of going back to university is based on an inaccurate rosy picture.

I sincerely thank you for replying with info to my thread. But your negative responses (which seem to be inconsistent) and patronising tone (you don't even know me) have put me off asking any more questions to be honest.

Perhaps you're used to giving advice to wet-behind-the-ears, just-out-of-bed students. I'm not one of them.

If my wife doesn't get any financial help she'll still go and we'll benefit in the long run. Hopefully you can advise some students in a way which will help them continue their studies, instead of dropping out.

Crispy_Ambulance

Mr_Crafty wrote:

When you say you are giving me the facts and not your opinion does this include "she won't be entitled to a fee loan or a maintenance loan"? This is at odds with the studentsupportdirect website.

Doing a second degree she can't get a fee loan or a maintenance loan. she may get some of the support grants, but they are means tested.

I'm not confused by the Access to Learning grant. I am merely giving my opinion about it. If she's not allowed a loan (fact) she should be entitled to some of the support grants (opinion) - do you disagree with this? Or do you think some students should get a loan, fees paid and additional grants when others get nothing?

ALF is not part of the supplementary grants. and it doesn't matter what you or I think about her deservingness, it matters whether she fits the criteria.

"I told you I couldn't tell you that (whether she was entitled to anything) without knowing what you had put in (to the entitlement calculator)"

At odds with your first reply. Which was "She will not be eligible for a fee loan or for a maintenance loan".

not at odds at all. She cannot get a fee loan or a maintenance loan. The grants are different and dependent on household income and eligibility.

She CAN afford this course in the long-term - read my initial post. We want some short-term help in order that it doesn't cost more than it should.

"That is why I advised her to contact the students union advice centre" - it was them she spoke to. I suppose I should have made that clearer. They wouldn't give her any advice unitl she'd been offered a place. Really helpful that.

Different advice centres have different codes of practice. Many are short staffed - they might have a catchment group of 20K plus students already and have stricter rules about advising prospective students. But if she had come to see me, I would have advised her!

My wife and I have both already undertaken and finished degrees, I'm now completing a part-time distance-learning personally funded Masters at the other end of the country, while having a full-time university job and looking after 3 kids. I can't think of anyone less appropriate to advise that their idea of going back to university is based on an inaccurate rosy picture.

I sincerely thank you for replying with info to my thread. But your negative responses (which seem to be inconsistent) and patronising tone (you don't even know me) have put me off asking any more questions to be honest.

my responses are not inconsistent and I am not patronising you. I am telling you what the situation is. You asked if there was help available - I told you that there was very little and made some suggestions - which you did not like. Fair enough. But don't accuse me of being patronising.

Perhaps you're used to giving advice to wet-behind-the-ears, just-out-of-bed students. I'm not one of them.
now who is being patronising? I see hundreds of students including plenty of mature students who didn't realise that there would be no financial support available. Or who thought they could manage and then they couldn't. I don't judge my clients and I don't lie to them. I help as much as I can, but they don't issue us with magic wands.

If my wife doesn't get any financial help she'll still go and we'll benefit in the long run. Hopefully you can advise some students in a way which will help them continue their studies, instead of dropping out.
I don't tell anybody to drop out. But I can't make funding appear out of nowhere. And I don't make the laws. I understand that this is a difficult decision for you to make as a family and I wish Mrs Crafty well with it, but I would be a rubbish adviser if I said - "Oh, don't worry, the money will come from somewhere."

And as for tax credits - you'll still get CTC, but unless you are both working full time, ie 16 hours per week or more, then you won't get the childcare help.

I'm sorry if you think I am being too negative, but the situation is not a good one.

theluckiswithme

Mr_Crafty wrote: »

No bursaries available in the department she's applying to (Optometry in Cardiff) as they don't have to offer them. They have loads of applicants for each place as they are the top school in the country.

Seems strange to me too......

I don't really have much advice to give you but I just wanted to say hi and that I am in exactly the same situation as your wife. I have a place to study Optometry in Cardiff in September and it is also my 2nd undergraduate degree (I'm 22 and did a degree in Natural Sciences before completely changing my mind) so I can't get a maintenance loan etc either. I think it is a bit ridiculous that you can get one for some subjects leading to a professional qualification but not for Optometry. If you find out anything useful with regards to funding then could you please let me know as it would be useful for me too and if I find out anything then I'll be sure to pass it on to you and your wife.

I look forward to hopefully meeting your wife in September,

Corinne (theluckiswithme).

bestpud

OP, have you considered taking out a personal loan instead? You have a good joint income and your wife's will hopefully rise considerably after her degree so I can't see you wouldn't be able to get a favourable rate, and you will be able to pay it off. Or have you checked out career development loans?

Re the access to learning fund - you're in a much better position than any mature student I know so I can't see how you would qualify to be honest (not having a go - just stating how it seems to me!)

Best wishes with it all,

Bestpud