FTSE100 falling fast!

Thrugelmir

Mr_Mumble wrote: »

Pedant mode on : prior to the merger it was known as Lloyds TSB Group it was only after the poison pill merger with HBOS that it became the "Lloyds Banking Group", ergo, why I said LBG not Lloyds TSB.

Thanks for the clarification.

Thrugelmir

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

The nations that represent the "Indebted Western Economies" are collectively somewhere around two thirds of the global economy.

Economies built on debt. So far from a true picture. After the dust has finally settled in the picture may be totally different and a new world order established.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Economies built on debt. So far from a true picture. After the dust has finally settled in the picture may be totally different and a new world order established.

Economies and monetary systems exist to serve the population, not the other way around.

The real foundation of an economy is the people behind it, and their ability to create and consume.

Debt can be erased with the stroke of a pen, or the pressing of a button on a printing press. Whereas access to two thirds of the worlds consumers is invaluable.

Thrugelmir

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Economies and monetary systems exist to serve the population, not the other way around.

The real foundation of an economy is the people behind it, and their ability to create and consume.

Maybe so when exchange controls were in place. This is no longer the case.

geneer

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

But the point is that the PIGGS don't have their own currency, they're forced to operate with a currency and monetary policy framework that is entirely unsuitable for their needs.

Which brings us neatly back to my original post in this thread......

Hey Hamish.
When did you discover you could actually see the future?
Are you the forums very own mystic meg?

Mr_Mumble

Yet more bad news for Monday's share price action:

German Government Thinks Italy Too Big For EFSF To Save -Spiegel

06/08/2011 17:48

Spiegel magazine reports in a preview of an article to be published Monday.

The government doubts whether even tripling the size of the rescue fund, known as the European Financial Stability Facility, would enable it to save Italy because the country's financing needs are so enormous, the magazine reports without naming the source of its information.


European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso this week suggested increasing the size of the EFSF, which currently has a planned lending capacity of EUR440 billion ($622.9 billion), to help stem Europe's worsening debt crisis.


German government finance experts believe euro-zone states couldn't guarantee Italy's EUR1.8 trillion of sovereign debt without markets considering Germany to be overstretched, Der Spiegel reports.


Germany's government therefore insists that Italy push through savings and reforms to help it exit the crisis, the magazine reports. It thinks the EFSF should only be used to rescue small and mid-size countries, the magazine reports.


A government spokesman couldn't be reached for comment in time for publication.

sabretoothtigger

ess0two wrote: »

Yep. Just waiting to see what Essar offer in terms of share option plans .

StevieJ wrote: »

I bought some of those but sold again at £4.19 (at a loss?), could be a good option now.

I bought them and held :eek:

Not exactly been solid but nothing is now. They are due to start providing large amounts of power to a growing Indian market, should be good if India shake off nationalism

Do you work for them then ess0two?


They have a youtube channel :j http://www.youtube.com/user/EssarHome


Google is ok for a quick look but many of these sites are a bit wonky in the data, out of date etc
Halifax have some sort on line free data service, looks alot like iii and digitallook.


Santander is 9.3% yield on their shares now I think, paid in euros


Shell is a good one. I got suckered into buying BP though, I did sell them at 511 but obviously I bought them back a bit too early as they went ex div on Wed
just in time for largest falls of the year :laugh:

Barc goes ex div on Wed now and yield is about 2% depending on the final div and/or forthcoming apocalypse(s)

And the ultimate power in financial markets does not rest with the participants of those markets, but rather with the governments that set the rules under which those participants must operate.


As J Paul Getty was fond of saying, "If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem."

Excellent argument for just a FTSE thread.

My main point would be the market resembles a force of nature more then just a group of people. People are the participants of course but I think as a system it flows more like water under gravity.
I understand we can manipulate all sorts of things but we cant change the fundamentals or create wealth just like that. That'd be like alchemy

"Indebted Western Economies" are collectively somewhere around two thirds of the global economy. There is therefore no such thing as too big to bail, when contagion is the alternative.

You are right and this is incorrect. USA is only 300 million people, in terms of buying power they are gigantically overvalued it would seem.
A grand adjustment to that imbalance is likely to occur and thats the missing part of this puzzle maybe.

Leverage is great but it is possible to just break the lever in two trying to do too much

I recognise the argument and I would not say you are wrong but in the end I think the words of people will fall second to the actions of people (globally) and I rank politics as the former

German Government Thinks Italy Too Big For EFSF To Save -Spiegel

More important then that is German people do not approve of all this debt.

Maybe they are alot different to USA or UK people but Ive heard a German trader state the actions of Merkel reflect her own voters who she has no room to displease in the elections .
Germany is europe imo, they will not be issuing Euro bonds to fund Italy or whoevers debt

Mrs_Bones

Vince Cable opens his mouth again tomorrow / today in an article in The Sunday Times, saying that 'Britain faces a double dip recession as the Bank of England prepares to slash growth forecasts.' Not saying he's wrong but it's hardly going to help the markets when they open on Monday. Not the sort of speech to generate much confidence.

sabretoothtigger

Cable loves those headlines, I thought he would be useful with some real knowledge


UK will reflect USA and guess upto 1.30pm
Its been true a few times that big news is released on late Friday to deliberately force world markets to properly digest events instead of just crashing.

So they didnt just decide, the news was delayed and withheld. This last week quite probably already reflected the news, this happens very often that markets anticipate and overreact even

So they sold the rumour and they might buy the news is where I think is the probable direction



A few people I think knew beforehand that this downgrade was almost a certainty. Markets dont keep secrets well when a few people know so Im wondering how much shock effect will occur

The Pimco guy was an awful liar when he was talking about a 'hypothetical downgrade'

For me ideally I see Monday pre usa open a blip down and then it flattens out which means even a rise is possible.

Forced selling often marks a low as it bears no relation to company value.
Opposite of a bubble


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-06/treasury-questions-credibility-of-s-p-action.html

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Economies and monetary systems exist to serve the population, not the other way around.

The real foundation of an economy is the people behind it, and their ability to create and consume.

Debt can be erased with the stroke of a pen, or the pressing of a button on a printing press. Whereas access to two thirds of the worlds consumers is invaluable.

USA benefits from the debt you know. Wiping it out at least means they no longer can borrow and spend.
It would risk a war to do such things but lets pretend zero fallout.

USA does not produce enough, in terms of trade they are not rich. Access to these people is not invaluable. Many good USA companies operate abroad, they could completely move if they wanted really. The White House must eventually do as its told


Totally agree people are the real wealth of a country but they can move abroad.

Asia to account for half of world GDP by 2050, ADB says

Asia's poor have yet to fully benefit from the region's robust growth

Asia will account for half of all global economic output by 2050 if it can maintain its current growth rate, the Asian Development Bank (ADB) has predicted.

It said Asia's gross domestic product (GDP) could increase from $17tn (£10tn) in 2010 to $174tn in 2050.

The ADB added income levels in Asia could match those in Europe today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14368324

ess0two

sabretoothtigger wrote: »

I bought them and held :eek:

Not exactly been solid but nothing is now. They are due to start providing large amounts of power to a growing Indian market, should be good if India shake off nationalism

Do you work for them then ess0two?


They have a youtube channel :j http://www.youtube.com/user/EssarHome


Google is ok for a quick look but many of these sites are a bit wonky in the data, out of date etc
Halifax have some sort on line free data service, looks alot like iii and digitallook.


Santander is 9.3% yield on their shares now I think, paid in euros


Shell is a good one. I got suckered into buying BP though, I did sell them at 511 but obviously I bought them back a bit too early as they went ex div on Wed
just in time for largest falls of the year :laugh:

Barc goes ex div on Wed now and yield is about 2% depending on the final div and/or forthcoming apocalypse(s)




Excellent argument for just a FTSE thread.

My main point would be the market resembles a force of nature more then just a group of people. People are the participants of course but I think as a system it flows more like water under gravity.
I understand we can manipulate all sorts of things but we cant change the fundamentals or create wealth just like that. That'd be like alchemy



You are right and this is incorrect. USA is only 300 million people, in terms of buying power they are gigantically overvalued it would seem.
A grand adjustment to that imbalance is likely to occur and thats the missing part of this puzzle maybe.

Leverage is great but it is possible to just break the lever in two trying to do too much

I recognise the argument and I would not say you are wrong but in the end I think the words of people will fall second to the actions of people (globally) and I rank politics as the former





More important then that is German people do not approve of all this debt.

Maybe they are alot different to USA or UK people but Ive heard a German trader state the actions of Merkel reflect her own voters who she has no room to displease in the elections .
Germany is europe imo, they will not be issuing Euro bonds to fund Italy or whoevers debt

Essar have just bought us out,ex Shell Stanlow refinery.

They certainly gave a good speech wrt investment etc,proof will be in the pudding so to speak.

They have a large refinery in India,currently averaging 7-8$ per barrel profit,we are somewhere 3-4$ with Shell.Although different departments creamed most of the profit off.

I can see them importing large volumes of diesel and jet fuel from India,the UK struggles with these products,nearly all UK refineries are heavily biased to petrol production.

Most UK refineries require investment,and were designed on North sea easy crudes.