Ex-employer delving into my bank account

Naf

Joe_Bloggs wrote: »

MSE_Martin has written on the subject of the right to set off here.

A potted law history:-
Past court judgements make case law which then sets a precedent for future judges to decide matters. If aeons of case law is on the side of one party then there is often very little point in contesting a court action. Hence a bank can act without fear of court involvement or consideration of employee contract terms given the right to set off.

The FOS will reverse a right to set off situation in the case that its use was applied in an inappropriate way.

I think that we all make mistakes and we learn by sharing them rather than having to make them for ourselves.

J_B.

Thats good, thanks.
This part is probably the important bit...

Martin wrote:

Currently it seems the account shouldn't be subject to any form of ongoing dispute (eg you're saying the debt isn't yours) and should be what's called "payable on demand"; which means it can be done on the entire balance of a credit card, but only missed monthly payment for loans

Naf

noh wrote: »

The correct term is "set off" not offset which has no meaning in this context.

All except there wasn't £808 in my account... or even available in my overdraft.

stclair

Naf wrote: »

All except there wasn't £808 in my account... or even available in my overdraft.

I think you should get proper legal advice. Was you in the union at Santander?

http://www.advance-union.org/contact

ChiefGrasscutter

Not sure if this is relevant to the discussion....

If you have a civil service pension paid direct into your bank account, when you die the HMG have a right to delve into your bank account to reclaim any part of a pension payment already made where the deceased is no longer entitled to that part - without any further notification. As an executor I came across this one. So the principle of an employer having the right in certain circumstances to delve into an employees account exists (I taking pension as effectively deferred pay)

ihateyes

who was your bank account with... Santander i take it??

Ok my 2ps worth. yes they had the right to deduct it from your wages, but once the made the booboo, they had no right to take th unds back out of your bank account. it now becomes a debt

example...

if you accidentally pay standing order over a numebr of months into my bank by accident, as you miskeyed a number wrongly, the bank cant jsut take it out, they have to contact me and ask me if the can take the money and redirect it on to the correct destination.

noh

Naf wrote: »

All except there wasn't £808 in my account... or even available in my overdraft.

Sorry I missed that.
In that case I don't believe they are justified in using the right of set off. They would be right to do so if your account was in credit but only to the amount of the the available funds.

stclair

http://www.bike2workscheme.co.uk/faqs.php

What happens if my employment ends?

If employment ends before the end of the scheme then the bike will become a taxable benefit. The remaining balance owed to the employer is to be deducted from the employee's final pay

KiKi

The OP didn't receive any money for the bike, this isn't an issue. Nor is the fact that he owed them money.

The only question at hand (having been posting about this in the employment board for a while!) is:

Is it legal / within Santander's T&Cs, to recall a salary payment that has already been made, when that money is no longer in the person's account.

This is the one thing that no-one was able to establish on the employment board - one person said yes, others said no!!
KiKi

stclair

KiKi wrote: »

The OP didn't receive any money for the bike, this isn't an issue. Nor is the fact that he owed them money.

The only question at hand (having been posting about this in the employment board for a while!) is:

Is it legal / within Santander's T&Cs, to recall a salary payment that has already been made, when that money is no longer in the person's account.

This is the one thing that no-one was able to establish on the employment board - one person said yes, others said no!!
KiKi

I would say it is legal the bank have the right to recall payments should they need too. Its happened to me before when I was over paid once.

Naf

This is what I've just responded to HR:

naf_HR_letter wrote:

Dear Ms Worthington, I thank you for your response, however it is far from satisfactory. A number of things you said do not ring true; in addition you seem to be making some rather unfair accusations against me, whilst it is your department who have made the error in the first place.
As previously stated, I now understand exactly how the situation with my wages should have happened; however I do not understand how it went wrong. For two years I have not had any problems with any of my salary payments; they have been paid on time, for the correct amounts, even my tax appears to have been managed correctly. However, just this once my wages went completely wrong; seems odd to start with. I did receive a payslip breakdown of what had been done to get to the £808.50 figure I was paid and was extremely confused as to where the figure for my Bikes4Work payment had come from in the first place; given I only took a certificate for £700, where does £751.05 come from? This error ought to have been spotted before my salary was processed to my account, particularly given that payslip details are available on the intranet system by the 15th, the details of individuals pay must be worked out even further in advance than that.

In suggesting that I ought to have contacted you regarding the amount, you seem to be suggesting that I am supposed to assume, against 24 months evidence to the contrary, that your department are incapable of doing their jobs (not an altogether unfounded assumption from my viewpoint right now), as opposed to thinking that the department are staffed with well trained, professional people who are more than capable of getting simple things like arithmetic correct. Given the fact I had not had (nor had I hear that any of my colleagues had) any problems with their wages in the past, I do not think it unreasonable to think your department can, in fact, do their job just fine, and that my final wage had been worked out correctly. In addition I contest that if you think I should have called you, I equally think you should have called me. In light of my previous point, I had no reason to think it would have been done wrong and therefore had no feeling I ought to check. You, on the other hand, should have realised that I wouldn't necessarily know this was a mistake and should have contacted me to discuss what was going to happen about it; out of courtesy if nothing else. This is the first job I have had where any portion of wage was paid in advance. I had never realised this fact, and had always thought that the money paid on the 19th each time was either money for the full previous calendar month (a cut off of roughly two weeks prior to payday is what I am accustomed to), or that it was paid from 19th to 19th. The idea that anything was paid in advance is something that would not have occurred to me. Not only this, but I commenced employment with an 'on spec' contract, meaning I had no set hours of work, and was hourly paid – all of my wages were paid in arrears.
I notice that you appear to be confused by the fact the money was spent from my account so quickly. I must say, the speed with which it was spent is not particularly relevant; especially as I did not simply go ahead and spend or withdraw the whole lot; as someone who was attempting to 'cash in' on a known error would have. I paid out on perfectly reasonable things that simply wouldn't have been paid for had I been paid correctly (i.e. not at all). The payday loan would not have been paid off, rather extended a further month; I would not have been able to spend money on decorations for my son's upcoming 1st Birthday; I would not have purchased as much convenience food and more expensive extras and treats, rather stuck to the basics. I therefore would not have exceeded my overdraft limit, as you suggested I would have, and so you can still be held liable for the “adverse consequences” that are affecting me as, clearly, I can “fully account” for where this money has been spent. The fact I spent some of the money quickly, but did not spend or remove the whole amount does indicate that I was unaware that it was an error, rather believed it was my final payment.
My query anyway, regards your entry into my account to take funds that were not there. Firstly you mention the right of an employer under “common law” to recover overpayments made to its employees. This right refers to being able to make deductions (subject to various conditions) from wage payments; the law does not give an employer any right whatsoever to take money from an employee's personal bank account (except where said employee is also a customer; but this would be a direct debit and a completely separate item). You go on to mention your right of “set off” against employee accounts. Once again, as a Santander customer, the bank has the right to move money between my accounts to cover missed payments and overdue sums where I have a debt account, but the right to set off money in my current account against a salary overpayment is not included in this; it would have to be specified within the terms of employment. You claim it is, but I beg to differ as you sent me the most up-to-date version just last week, and there is no mention of any provision to take funds from my accounts.. In addition, to be able to set off funds, they need to be available; which £675 of the amount you took was not.
In light of the above, I believe you have acted outside of your legal rights. Whilst me asking for any of this money back would not really help either of us, I do believe you could be somewhat more flexible given that your mistake is what set of this entire situation. I have made an 'agreement' with the collections department (had I not, I would have been unable to pay my rent or buy any food for my family for at least two weeks), but it is extremely unlikely I will be able to keep to even this, and will certainly have nothing over and above to offer towards the Bikes4Work balance. Given my circumstances I would be able to offer £60 per month, split as you and collections agree, between the two accounts. Once I have found new employment I would intend to increase this to £80 or even £100 per month. Given the circumstances on both sides, I believe this to be perfectly reasonable.