How long off is reasonable for a Broken Finger?

Person_one

gingerdad wrote: »

should add this is his 3 period of sick since april (8 days, 2 days and now 4 weeks). also should add thats more off sick than the rest of the comapny put together (19 full time staff) in 6 years. so it hasn't come up before

You've got a very lucky bunch of employees, I hope for their sake it lasts.

Mimi_Arc_en_ciel

Uncertain wrote: »

So, assuming you are a fairly small business, this is not actually costing you a great deal as you indirectly get the SSP back from the government.

Equally the employee is taking a considerable cut in income - it is not as if he is getting full pay.

You could reasonably request that he sees an independent doctor (at your expense) or that he agrees to his GP writing a report (again you would have to pay a fee).

Without a clear written sickness policy (and it doesn't sound as though you have one) and / or professional medical advice you are leaving yourself wide open if you take action.

Probably not what you want to hear I'm afraid!

I disagree with the highlighted - OP is hiring temp staff - if through recruitment agency then paing a HELL of a lot more than he would "normal" staff. Let assume temp staff earns £7ph and regular worker earns £7ph. Recruitment agency will charge £9ph and give temp £7ph keeping £2ph as profit - costing (assuming 7.5 hours a day) and extra £14.40 a day for someone to do same job. That's £72 a week - £312 EXTRA a month (72 x52Weeks / 12 months)

So actually - for a small business - it is costing much more.

OP - Obviously you will need to do your own sums for the wages but lets assume the above is pretty much right - How much will it cost you to see an independant doctor?

If you believe he will get ANOTHER sick note for 4 weeks that means in total you would have paid out an extra £624 (Assuming again, on figures above!) So to pay £xx for an independant doctor ISNT actually that much of a price to pay. Take him back into work - discipline him/sack him.

heretolearn_2

Just to clarify one point as there is some misinformation posted earlier:

SSP is not something people have to apply for. It is the legal right for all employees and employers DO have to pay it to them automatically. Small employers can then reclaim it back from the HMRC. IF you are an employer and not paying SSP then you are breaking the law and could get into real trouble if one of your employees went to a tribunal over it.
The clue is in the name. STATUTORY sick pay. All the Statutory types of pay (maternity etc) are not optional, you have to do them.

Uncertain

Mimi_Arc_en_ciel wrote: »

If you believe he will get ANOTHER sick note for 4 weeks that means in total you would have paid out an extra £624 (Assuming again, on figures above!) So to pay £xx for an independant doctor ISNT actually that much of a price to pay. Take him back into work - discipline him/sack him.

Of course the independent doctor may take the view that sick leave is justified, after all the employee's GP is of that opinion. That is of course the risk when you seek a professional opinion - it may not be what you want to hear but you will still have to pay for it!

skintandscared_2

But it is up to the employer what sickness absence is acceptable across a calendar year and this guy sounds like he's milking it. At the very least I think it's time to review/(write!) a staff handbook to include procedures following sickness absence. We have "back to work" interviews to ascertain if there's anything the firm can do to help. We have assessments by the firm's private doctor if HR request it and they will not pay anything but SSP after 4 weeks absence (this is discretionary and thankfully they are not as disgusting as the case mentioned where someone was reprimanded for being off sick with cancer - that is just unbelievable!!!!)

Tiddlywinks

NIce - none of you have met the fellow but are happy to write him off as taking the pee... even though he has a sick note from a GP.

Maybe there are complications? An infection? Hope he isn't reading this during his rest at home - it won't cheer him up knowing that his boss is on an internet forum calling him a liar!

Granted the GP could have suggested light duties but only s/he knows why that was not appropriate.

Savvy_Sue

paddedjohn wrote: »

since he broke his finger on his holiday he is also entitled to claim his leave back, so if he had 2 weeks paid leave and fell ill during this time then it can be classed as sick leave instead of holidays.

I think that's discretionary. If he'd had leave booked after he broke his finger, then he'd have been entitled to ask for it to be paid as leave rather than SSP, or the OP would have had to allow him to take it later.

Mistral001 wrote: »

Gingerdad

You have not said, what sick pay policies you have? In law there is no requirement for an employer to pay a person who is off sick as far as I am aware.

I found that out when I was was once an employer. I was surprised about it. Paid the few days that my employee was off each year anyway, but when I discussed it with other small employers, I found out that many just did not pay anything at all, so i was being generous according to them.

the employee can apply for statuary sick pay but that does not come from the employer.

heretolearn has already cleared that one up: an employer HAS to pay SSP unless the employee is not entitled to it (earnings too low so NI not paid is the usual one, having had it for the maximum period is the other), BUT if the employee is NOT entitled to SSP from the employer then the employer has to give a form stating why it's not being paid, which also says what the employee CAN apply for in terms of benefits. It's all on the HMRC website, or if you outsource payroll your provider should be able to advise you.

It cost my employer about £200 to get me an appointment with the local NHS Occupational Health service. I had to give my permission for this to happen, and for my GP, physio and shoulder specialist to be contacted. OccHealth then wrote with recommendations about my return to work and what adjustments I might need.

DH has an employee with a long-term absence, that's more complicated than this, but he was advised that if he got a permission form from the employee then he could contact that person's GP and ask for more details about the reasons for their sick leave, whether any adjustments could be made etc.

Mimi_Arc_en_ciel

Uncertain wrote: »

Of course the independent doctor may take the view that sick leave is justified, after all the employee's GP is of that opinion. That is of course the risk when you seek a professional opinion - it may not be what you want to hear but you will still have to pay for it!

Of course . . .and in this instance i would say to OP - weigh up the risk of that - Is it worth paying £XX for a doctor knowing there is a chance this may be a legit person who has a serious injury . . . Or keep quiet and end up paying £XX on temp staff.

Mistral001

heretolearn wrote: »

Just to clarify one point as there is some misinformation posted earlier:

SSP is not something people have to apply for. It is the legal right for all employees and employers DO have to pay it to them automatically. Small employers can then reclaim it back from the HMRC. IF you are an employer and not paying SSP then you are breaking the law and could get into real trouble if one of your employees went to a tribunal over it.
The clue is in the name. STATUTORY sick pay. All the Statutory types of pay (maternity etc) are not optional, you have to do them.

I think you were referring to my "misinformation" about the employer having no legal requirement to pay sickness pay. I could see how that statement could be confusing as there is a requirement for the employer to act as middle-man to pay SSP in wage packet, which they claim back later from HMRC. Many employers top up this SSP with their own money or through insurance schemes which they pay the premiums for, but there is no legal requirement to do this.

Since you corrected me on one point, I will correct you on another in return!! You have actually apply for SSP in some circumstances - if you are self-employed for example. I had to apply for it about eight years ago when I was sick for 5 weeks. I got £55 per week, if I can remember, so not very much I am afraid.

bengalknights

Mimi_Arc_en_ciel wrote: »

I disagree with the highlighted - OP is hiring temp staff - if through recruitment agency then paing a HELL of a lot more than he would "normal" staff. Let assume temp staff earns £7ph and regular worker earns £7ph. Recruitment agency will charge £9ph and give temp £7ph keeping £2ph as profit - costing (assuming 7.5 hours a day) and extra £14.40 a day for someone to do same job. That's £72 a week - £312 EXTRA a month (72 x52Weeks / 12 months)

So actually - for a small business - it is costing much more.

OP - Obviously you will need to do your own sums for the wages but lets assume the above is pretty much right - How much will it cost you to see an independant doctor?

If you believe he will get ANOTHER sick note for 4 weeks that means in total you would have paid out an extra £624 (Assuming again, on figures above!) So to pay £xx for an independant doctor ISNT actually that much of a price to pay. Take him back into work - discipline him/sack him.

You forget the op will also be paying employers nic contribution which in some cases means the temp is actually cheaper to use then keeping the employee.