trafford council littering

Stigy

Sirdan wrote: »

Of course and the alleged offender can tell them to .er.."go away" and walk off.
Totally unworkable legislation..quite hard to summons someone for the offence of not giving their name and address ...to whom do you send the summons and at what address ?

The legislation makes it clear that this is a summary offence (the not giving an accurate name and address or a total refusal) and as such only a constable could effect an arrest ...I think they may have better things to do don't you ?

I agree that it relies somewhat on the goodwill of the general public, however, if somebody does refuse their details, or give false ones, even if the official assertains the correct ones on the spot, the offence has been committed and the FPN would more than likely no longer be an option (off to the Mags Court).

If the person walks off, and they are later identified (by serving a summons in person to the home address etc), then they can still be summonsed. If the person disputes this the matter can still go to court, but the council worker will have to identify them in court and, if satisfied, this will be enough to secure a conviction.

Unfortunately, a professional witness saying "that was him", is often enough to satisfy the Magistrates.

Coblcris

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/local/legislation/cnea/documents/fixed-penalty-guidance.pdf

Sirdan

Stigy wrote: »

I agree that it relies somewhat on the goodwill of the general public, however, if somebody does refuse their details, or give false ones, even if the official assertains the correct ones on the spot, the offence has been committed and the FPN would more than likely no longer be an option (off to the Mags Court).

If the person walks off, and they are later identified (by serving a summons in person to the home address etc), then they can still be summonsed. If the person disputes this the matter can still go to court, but the council worker will have to identify them in court and, if satisfied, this will be enough to secure a conviction.

Unfortunately, a professional witness saying "that was him", is often enough to satisfy the Magistrates.

And how exactly do you serve a summons in person at the home address when the person has walked off without giving their name and address, presumably only if some other "helpful" person tells you who they are ?? Realistically what are the chances ???
I suspect those who drop litter willfully probably know this and regularly stick two fingers up to the law ..

Stigy

Sirdan wrote: »

And how exactly do you serve a summons in person at the home address when the person has walked off without giving their name and address, presumably only if some other "helpful" person tells you who they are ?? Realistically what are the chances ???
I suspect those who drop litter willfully probably know this and regularly stick two fingers up to the law ..

I meant if they were somehow traced back to a given address...Never know, they might have dropped a bank statement...:D

Sirdan

Extract from DEFRA guide as posted above

Getting a date of birth
Enforcement officers do not have the
power to require someone alleged to have
committed an offence to give their date
of birth, regardless of age, in the same
way that they do for name and address.
However, it is sensible to ask for this
information as some magistrates’ courts
have required the date of birth of an alleged
offender before they will issue a summons.

You really couldn't make it up could you ?? :rotfl:

Stigy

Sirdan wrote: »

Extract from DEFRA guide as posted above


You really couldn't make it up could you ?? :rotfl:

It's the same with most legislation. I work with Railway Byelaws and the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RRA) and the RRA states that it's an offence to supply incorrect name and/or address, and that only (after having failed to pay a rail fare with intent to avoid payment). Railway Byelaw 23.1 states that it is an offence to fail to supply a name AND address on demand (date of birth doesn't matter, nor does refusing just a name, or just an address). However, if I submit a report (MG11) without a DoB on it, it probably wouldn't make it past the paper sift...

Sirdan

Stigy wrote: »

It's the same with most legislation. I work with Railway Byelaws and the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RRA) and the RRA states that it's an offence to supply incorrect name and/or address, and that only (after having failed to pay a rail fare with intent to avoid payment). Railway Byelaw 23.1 states that it is an offence to fail to supply a name AND address on demand (date of birth doesn't matter, nor does refusing just a name, or just an address). However, if I submit a report (MG11) without a DoB on it, it probably wouldn't make it past the paper sift...

How about just submitting a report on headed paper ? Why waste an MG11 (witness statement) until you have a decision on whether or not proceedings will be instituted.

PS I think you have interpreted that wrong if the offence is failing to supply "name and address" then failing to supply either one or the other is the offence , to comply you must supply both pieces of information.

Stigy

Sirdan wrote: »

How about just submitting a report on headed paper ? Why waste an MG11 (witness statement) until you have a decision on whether or not proceedings will be instituted.

PS I think you have interpreted that wrong if the offence is failing to supply "name and address" then failing to supply either one or the other is the offence , to comply you must supply both pieces of information.

It's often not the staff member's decision as to what will happen. In submitting an MG11 you're reporting the facts of the matter, and what the company/council etc does with it is up to them.

With regard to the Byelaw, I was, for some reason misinterpreting it...I didn't have them to hand, and it's amazing how it is portrayed if you think of it as follows "Fails to supply a name AND address" against the actual wording of "shall give his name AND address"

morrisoscar

Coblcris wrote: »

Trafford is known for what some may call its 'creative streak'.

Trafford at it again, must have lost a parking regulation fight:D

catgorm

Having sent the council a reply requiring evidence etc,
i recieved a letter today with a witness statment of the officer, stating a blue car, mine is silver even tho they got the reg right, and that the female dropped the cig just before getting into the front passenger side, where as its first letter it states it was thrown from the front passenger side, bit of a contradition i think. he said he had a clear unobstructed view, obviously not if my car is silver and he said they was parked right behind me

However with the description given i no the lady in question, but just her first name and i no what area she lives in but not her address, and that she is a cleaner or carer.
If i next c her i will tell her, i am more mortified and upset at the way they have gone about things, i might not see her for 6 month or might see her tomorrow, i could possibly find out if i dug about, but why should i do their job, i have spent enough time writing
letters and looking into it than i want to.:mad:
Any ideas on what to do next, it is really peeing me off, are they going to continue to harrass me as it is what it feels like.
:beer:
thanks all