TalkTalk is sh**

Mark_In_Hampshire

Thanks for that clarification. I wondered whether this was true, e.g.

1. Customer reports problem. On inspection of the available information it is not clear where the fault, if any, lies.
2. Qube engineer attends.
3. Qube engineer confirms fault does not lie with equipment for which customer is responsible and reports back to you.
4. You then *automatically* void the Qube engineer charge - the customer is never billed for it - and then *automatically* book an Openreach engineer without the customer having to call you back again and go through it all over a second time

Is that accurate?

With regard to "customer's internal wiring", this is somewhat farcical in many cases. Here is a case in point: old style 1960s junction box, GPO box and something called a "star wiring" configuration (we have two sockets, no master, both wired in parallel).

All this is not "customer's internal wiring". This was in fact, as is called, a "new BT line" simply activated at the exchange without anyone inspecting the shabby condition of the wiring. I'm amazed it works at all.

Line is 3680m long (distance to exchange 2.59km) and can manage a 20CN sync of 2048 with an IP profile of 1750kbps. So we don't even bother with it and use 3G for speed. It isn't even much use for telephony (quiet line and crackles).

I know what needs doing. The whole lot needs stripping out back to the dropwire and completely renewing, and then the physical pair needs repair or replacement. And in such a circumstance, I would not expect to be charged a penny. However I'd fully expect Openreach to send you a nice fat bill for doing that, citing "customer's internal wiring". Which you would, of course, throw straight back at Openreach - I certainly wouldn't see that on my bill, and have to query it, would I?

What I am alluding to is: please define "customer's internal wiring" from your and Openreach's perspective so it is clear.

bod1467

TalkTalk_Company_Representative wrote: »

If the Qube engineer determines that the fault lies outside of the customers property and assuming that none of the many extenuating circumstances apply such as criminal or accidental damage by home owner or other parties etc. Then the customer would not pay a penny.

Taking that literally the way it is written, you are saying the customer does not pay for the QUBE engineer visit if there is no fault with the customer equipment, wiring etc. i.e. the fault is with or after the Test socket. This is either a misinformed statement, or the OCEs on TTMF are peddling misinformation ... OCE_Emma (for example) has made the statement several times on TTMF that all QUBE visits are chargeable. Here is one such example.

So which is it? All QUBE visits are chargeable? Or only those for which the fault lies with the customer's setup? And it it's the latter I think some training of OCE's is needed.

TalkTalk

Hi bod1467,

it depends who requests the Qube, if we insist you have one as we believe it necessary then there would be no charge if the fault was proven to be a BT maintained equipment issue.

If you ask for an engineer (Qube) then charges will always apply.

OCE_ADY

bod1467

That's a bit disingenuous, Ady. QUBE engineers are optional, and OCEs have said this many times - a CS rep may suggest it as a good idea, but the customer still has to accept charges. When has TT ever insisted on sending one out? (Other than very occasionally as a marketing exercise).

Note: I am not a TT customer. My views are based solely on reading the TTMF.

Sterling

TalkTalk_Company_Representative wrote: »

If the Qube engineer determines that the fault lies outside of the customers property and assuming that none of the many extenuating circumstances apply such as criminal or accidental damage by home owner or other parties etc. Then the customer would not pay a penny.

TalkTalk_Company_Representative wrote: »

it depends who requests the Qube, if we insist you have one as we believe it necessary then there would be no charge if the fault was proven to be a BT maintained equipment issue.

If you ask for an engineer (Qube) then charges will always apply.

Ady, when I read your wording in the first above quote, I thought all was well, and that you were stating the position that any reasonable customer might expect it to be. Furthermore, your post did not add any further words of qualification of any kind to that very definite statement.

It was only after bod1467’s post that you then posted the words in the second of the above quotes, allowing us in the meantime to be completely misled. Worse still is the fact that what you are now effectively saying is that unless TT insists upon a Qube engineer the customer pays the cost in every case.

For the avoidance of any further doubt can you please confirm that if a TT customer, who has reported a fault to TT, declines TT’s recommendation of a Qube engineer (at £50 regardless of fault), but is prepared to accept a BT Openreach engineer’s inspection (at £130 which is not payable if the fault is the responsibility BT Openreach) then the investigation of the customer’s complaint can proceed on that basis?

Also, is that made clear to the customer at the time, and does that appear anywhere on TT’s website?

TalkTalk

Ok we are miles from the OPs original point, but I will answer your questions.

Firstly every customer who is offered or requests a QUBE is advised that a charge of £49.99 applies, if they are not then the charge cannot be applied, so if you weren't advised contact us we will retrieve the call and check it.

Next If you decline the option of a QUBE you may still have OR attend your fault should your fault be within their remit. Again you will be advised of charges in this case £129.99 for BTOR time related charges.

And here is how it is presented in the links in every OCEs signature on the members forum.

Hello all,

If you experience a fault on your line we will advise what testing needs to be completed to eliminate any possible fault with your internal wiring or equipment. To do this we will normally request you to test with an alternative handset, modem, filters etc at the master socket and if present your test socket. The reason for requesting such tests is to avoid Time Related Charges (TRC`s).

Like other service providers we use BT Openreach to investigate and resolve faults on your line, this is because the line & exchange is owned and maintained by Openreach. TalkTalk have the option to send either an Openreach or Qube engineer to investigate your fault, depending on the outcome of the diagnostics tests completed we will make a suggestion as to which is needed.

Qube Engineer
If you are unable to complete the required diagnostics or we feel the root cause of the fault to be with your equipment or internal wiring we may send a Qube engineer who will test everything from your computer to the master socket and everything in-between. If needed a Qube engineer can replace a faulty router or fix faulty extension socket. When we arrange a Qube we will always advise that the visit will be charged at £49.99 however in certain scenarios you will not be charged for example if the engineer doesn’t complete any work, the engineer will advise whether or not the visit is chargeable before leaving the property.

If the Qube engineer suspects a fault with the line and cannot locate any issue in your home, a subsequent visit by an Openreach engineer may be required. Please note that the Qube engineer may complete work in an attempt to resolve your fault but be unable to fully resolve the issue. In the event that the Openreach engineer identifies the fault on the line you will not be charged for the Openreach visit.

For the most part if a Qube engineer has given the “all clear” in your home you shouldn’t be charged for the subsequent visit from Openreach, however the fact that a Qube engineer has been to your home doesn’t automatically waive the charge should an Openreach engineer find an issue in your home.

Openreach Engineer
These will be sent if we believe the fault to be on your line, if an Openreach engineer visits to resolve a fault and finds no fault with the line or the root cause to be your equipment or internal wiring then you will be liable for the charges. Openreach engineers are charged at a flat rate of £129.99.

We are unable to book any of the above engineers unless the account holder accepts TRC`s. In the event that you refuse to accept TRC`s we will not be able to progress your fault any further

How do I dispute a charge?
If you have had charges added to your account and didn’t agree to accept possible charges or was advised that the visit would be free you should contact customer services 0870 444 1820 or post in the Customer Services section of the forum to raise a dispute. Your dispute will be logged and investigated, the charges team will aim to respond to you within 14days.

My dispute has been rejected, what do I do?
If, following the investigation you have been advised that the charges are valid and you wish dispute this further you should follow our complaint code by putting your complaint in writing.

NOTE: This applies to both LLU, WLR & IPStream customers. No profit is made by TalkTalk on these charges.

I do hope that helps.

OCE_ADY

spike7451

TalkTalk_Company_Representative wrote: »

If the Qube engineer determines that the fault lies outside of the customers property and assuming that none of the many extenuating circumstances apply such as criminal or accidental damage by home owner or other parties etc. Then the customer would not pay a penny. The purpose Qube visits is primarily that many customers don't or are not able to carry out testing properly. They dont have their internal wiring repaired or installed correctly as a result the charges levvied by BT were enormous and unnecessary and customers complained. As a result rather than advising customers to source a local engineer, many said they couldnt or wouldnt trust local contractors we now offer Qube visits.

Heres a question for you guys. Should TT or indeed any ISP be liable for the quality of a customers premises wiring? Bearing in mind how old many houses are and how many modifications will have been made.

Ady

Yes,up to & including the master socket.However,If it is found that the customer wiring is old & needs replacing,the should be a timescale imposed as to how much is charged for replacing it but if the wiring is damaged between the BT Coffin box & the Master,by say,new double glazing installed,then a portion of the total cost should be paid by the customer.Then the customer has owness in recovering the cost (if possible) from the window company.
I have been to faults,I can site one very old house in particular in Holywood,where I spent hours tracing back all the various phone lines & extensions to find where the fault lay.In that case,the fault lay in one of the many internal cables running from a 77A to the CTE5 when the master was relocated.Lots of running back & forth & toneing out the pairs.

Now I myself DO have the tools & knowledge to diagnose phone faults,as I did when my own phoneline went faulty,yet BT still insisted it was my internal wiring.Turned out,it was between my Master & the PCP in the street

Sterling

TalkTalk_Company_Representative wrote: »

Ok we are miles from the OPs original point, but I will answer your questions.

Hi Ady

Are we miles from the OP’s original point? I thought his main point was well made when he wrote

He checked all my connections and settings and I was informed that nothing was wrong inside my house. However I was charged £49.99 for that visit.

Now I must confess that for a while it looked to me like TalkTalk was taking the mickey. After all, Ady, your previous posts on this thread were at times difficult to follow, ambiguous and even self-contradictory on at least one occasion.

Even the company’s wording you have quoted in your latest post is couched in such vagaries as to make it very difficult to establish beyond doubt what is actually being said.

All this is a great shame, because, as can be seen from some posts on this thread, TalkTalk is shooting itself in the foot in terms of customer relations, when I actually think TalkTalk is genuinely trying to save its customers money in the long run (as I will now explain).

I imagine there was a time, before Qube engineers were used, when if TalkTalk received a reported fault from a customer, it merely advised the customer that it would arrange a visit by a BT engineer (now BT Openreach), pointing out that if the fault was not the responsibility of BT (now BT Openreach) then the customer would have to pay BT’s charges, now £130 + whatever else.

Now I think most customers are reasonably savvy with their computer equipment and would have tried to eliminate the possibility of any faults at home before even contacting TalkTalk. They (including me) would be perfectly willing to agree to appoint an engineer from BT (now BT Openreach) on the basis that the customer does not pay anything if the fault is one for which BT Openreach is responsible.

However, that arrangement assumes that BT (now BT Openreach) always plays fair and never claims payment for correcting faults that were its responsibility anyway.

Sadly that would not appear to be the case. In post 17 Mark_In_Hampshire mentions coverage by BBC’s Watchdog, which seemingly showed BT or BT Openreach charging for work for which they were responsible, adding that cases like this persist in the Home Phones forum to this day.

We then have post 28 by spike7451 in which he says

Now I myself DO have the tools & knowledge to diagnose phone faults,as I did when my own phoneline went faulty, yet BT still insisted it was my internal wiring. Turned out,it was between my Master & the PCP in the street.

Faced with what appears to be unfounded and possibly fraudulent charges by BT Openreach for a significant number of TalkTalk’s customers, it seems that TalkTalk decided to enlist the help of a firm independent engineers (Qube) to visit the customer’s property prior to calling out a BT Openreach engineer. In that way, if the Qube engineer reported that there was no fault in the customer’s equipment etc, then if BT Openreach subsequently attempted to claim the cost of repairs, both TalkTalk and the customer had the evidence to dispute the bogus charge.

The only trouble is that the Qube engineer, as an independent expert, has to be paid for his services regardless of who is responsible for the fault. In fairness, the fee, when you compare it to that for a BT Openreach engineer, seems pretty reasonable.

I am in fact a TalkTalk customer, and have been so for around two years, and thus far I have been very pleased with them indeed. If I understand what I have read on this thread correctly, in the event of my needing to report a fault to TalkTalk, then in the normal course of events I have the choice of agreeing to a visit by a Qube engineer (for which I pay what is effectively an insurance premium against being ripped off by BT Openreach or I take that risk in full, decline the offer of a Qube engineer, keep my £50, await a visit by a BT Openreach engineer and hope for the best.

To be honest, I’m not sure which way I’d chose, but its nice to have the choice, and all credit to TalkTalk for making that choice possible. What a pity it isn’t better explained.