Will's, Deeds of Variation and Probate

Conanius_2

Firstly, Apologies for chosing to post here, there didn't seem to be a more suitable section of the forum to put this in, and there seem to be plenty of similar posts dotted around.

Unfortunately my dad died 2 weeks ago, and I'm trying to help mum sort everything out.

Without going into the details here , it looks like we will need to do a Deed of Variation to sort things out with the will, followed by going for Probate to be able to actually start sorting out the estate. Mum would be the only listed beneficiary of the amended Will.

Mum and Dad were married, living in the same home and had both their names on the deeds of the house. Mum is the listed beneficiary on dads pension and 2 life insurance policies (one a 'real' life insurance, one an endowment which pays out early on the death of one of the policy holders). In total I think the estate will come over the £325k cap, even when deducting mortgage debt from dads share of the house etc. However, I think (Please correct me) that as they are married mum might not need to pay Inheritence tax on the values over the 325k cap.

One 'challenge' we face is that currently I live in London, my Mum and Brother live in Cheltenham, and my Aunt who is the executor lives in Stoke. Getting together during solicitor opening hours is going to prove to be a hillarious task.

Now, It seems to be that what I would have hoped would be quick, easy and straightforward could end up taking some time to sort out. Due to the way mum and dads accounts worked, mum needs to gain access to the accounts much much much sooner than the 2-3-6-9-12 months that these things sometimes seem to take.

With the scenario I have depicted above, it would be great to know if you have had to deal with similar situations, and how long (and if you dont mind, how much £££) it took to sort out.

Recommendations for solicitors are greatly recieved.

monkeyspanner

Sorry to hear of your loss.

Not sure how complex the estate is but what you describe seems similar to several family ones I have dealt with and these have taken about 3 to 6 months to sort out dependant on how quickly you can get the financial organisations to respond and how much effort the executor can allocate. Cost in all cases for estates I have been involved in has been simply the probate fees plus any taxes payable. The executor can decide to appoint a solicitor to deal with probate (not recommended as costly - allow 2% of estate and may also take longer) or just take specific advice if an issue arises. Queries will often be resolved by a quick phone call to the probate office which is free.

Your Aunt as executor can deal with probate at her local probate office there is no need for her to attend local to Cheltenham. She will need copies of the death certificate, certfied copies of the will to confirm her appointment and details of all the assets and contact details for the companies holding them. In some circumstances these organisations may release the assets without probate having been granted in most she will need to have probate granted prior to release of funds/transfer of investment.

If the beneficiaries wish to change the terms of the will then they will need to have a Deed of variation drawn up by a solicitor. If it is just your mum as sole beneficiary then it would be her only. I do not think the new beneficiaries would not need to be present when the document is signed. She/they would be able to change the will in favour of other people up to the IHT nil rate band without incurring IHT. Any unused IHT nil rate band will pass to your Mum's estate for use on her death. The executor does not need to be involved in drawing up the deed of variation but will need the document so the revised distribution of the estate can be confirmed.

Transfer of the house and the treatment of its value in the estate will depend on the form of ownership. i.e. sole, joint, or tenants in common.

The bank should allow access to funds on any joint account and will pay immediate funeral expenses from any frozen sole account. Any pension company should be contacted as soon as possible to see if you can get payments transferred to your Mum asap.

Hope it all goes smoothly.

Conanius_2

Wow, Great reply, thanks!

Dad was 57, Mum is 51. Dad worked, Mum is signed off from work. Some joint accounts exist, but the main account for bill payment and salaries in + saving was in sole name.

Due to this, we had already completed paperwork to get the pension sorted (Initial lump sum + immediate start of payment of a widows pension) in the hope to bring in a steady income stream, but the pension company are also asking for probate, which is a shade annoying.

Dads main money accounts are with the same bank that mum is with. They seem potentially content on just seeing a copy of a will stating mum is the beneficary and will transfer the monies.

Endowment has already paid out to mum (Superb service) paperwork for life insurance all submitted and details in 4 ish weeks, I'd imagine asking for probate also.

The only concern I guess that I have is I don't want to start running out, or indeed panicing about money situations. Its the last issue we need. Do you know if based on these circumstances if there is an ability to pull money from the estate whilst probate is ongoing as a 'living allowance' or some such?

noh

What about the life insurance policy?
Normally these would be written in trust and therefore fall outside of the estate. The proceeds being paid to the benificiary after sight of the death certificate.

Conanius_2

Interesting....

The life insurance paperwork I did certainly discussed trustee's, with my mum being the first trustee.... So I might not need probate for that?

Why is this so complicated !

I've found a group called IWC ( search iwc-ltd on google and its a .co.uk address) who will do a fixed fee no hidden costs etc etc, Deed of variation, Probate and take on the role of executor for £2.5k. Timescale of 2-3 months to completion... sounds good to me? Does anyone know much/anything about them?

noh

Personally I wouldn't now pay someone to do the the probate. As far as the Deed of Variation is concerned you have 2 years after the date of death to produce one. Although I am not sure why you need one.
You are correct in what you say concerning inheritance tax there will be none to pay if your mum is the sole beneficiary.

The pension will also be written in trust so again there is no reason for the trustees to wait for grant of probate before making payment.

I did use a local solictor to do the probate for my mums estate where I was the executor but wouldn't do so again because in reality you are just paying someone alot of money to fill in the forms for you. Something that is relatively straightforward.

monkeyspanner

I know it feels as though you are not making progress but think about it in stages.
-To complete probate forms you need a valuation of all assets at the date of death.
-To do this contact all the organisations and ask for a value many will ask for paperwork.
-Determine the stutus of the property.
-Query anything you don't understand with the Probate office.
-Fill in the probate forms and submit as there is no tax to pay they will not be too concerned about 100% accuracy on the forms.
-Submit the forms and get a probate interview date
-The probate interview is essentially a formality the executor will be asked to confirm and swear an oath that the details are correct.
-Wait for probate to be granted. If you ask when submitting the forms you can get multiple copies of grant of probate.
-Use your multiple copies to contact all the organisations and start collecting the assets.
-Once probate is granted the proceeds can be distributed in stages there is no need to wait until all the money has been collected.

I think you may find communicating with someone doing the probate on the families behalf almost as much work as doing it yourself.

Conanius_2

Sorry Noh, but I guess you missed my post further up, the Pension (Civil Service work pension) is asking for probate before it pays out in any way.


With everyone asking for Probate we are keen to get things done as fast as possible. I'm not keen on getting stuck when really 3 months is near to the maximum we can wait for everything to be processed. we only have access to a finite amount of money and we can't risk getting stuck half way through the process.

System

What I don't understand is why you think getting a deed of variation will speed things up? Probate can still go ahead while the deed of variation process is still ongoing. I'm not sure why you think everybody needs to get together beforehand either.

Deeds of variations can be done up to 2 years after death either before or after probate.

Biggles

I would be inclined to tackle the Civil Service Pension Scheme on that issue. Death of the pensioner and proof that you are a widow would be all that should be required - ie a death certificate and a marriage certificate. They are payable as of right. The handling of the estate, as mentioned above, is irrelevant.*

Also, it might help if you could give some clue as to why a deed of variation might be useful. Otherwise, as also mentioned above, the family ought to be able to do probate without the cost of a solicitor.


* The Scheme may, it seems from a little research, treat the lump sum death benefit differently from the widow's pension. They claim they pay the latter within a week of receiving the death cert and other documents. The payment of the former may depend on nominations made by the pensioner and may go to the personal representatives.

nigem

When my father died 3 yrs ago, my sister and I did an online deed of variation with tenminutewill. I think it cost about £40 AFAIK. There were no complications as both of us and my mother were all in agreement. We also did probate ouselves too, and it wasnt too complicated either as long as you can work your way through a form. We did the DOV after probate.