Grade 11 listing issues

Graye

My husband bought our current home in 1994. The person who he bought it from had bought the house in 1972 and then had various "improvements" (including some rather nasty 1970s style softwood doubleglazing) carried out immediately as he then rented it out (we live in a seaside town).

The house was then Grade 11 listed in 1973.

A couple of years ago, and with the window frames rotten, leaking and beyond any possible repair, we decided to pay extra to have hardwood double glazed windows installed in a Georgian style to match our the general style of our neighbours single glazed windows and in keeping with the age of the building. I phoned the council to enquire about any grants available (none) and what permissions we needed. I was told none were necessary, which it now seems was in fact totally wrong.

Now we want to sell the house there seem to be problems and we have been told we should have sought formal permission despite what I was told and despite the fact that we have fitted windows far more in keeping than the originals and athough those originals at the point the house was listed were double glazed too.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to resolve this quickly please? As the originals were fitted in 1972 and the property was listed AFTER that date I'm not sure what we are likely to be asked to do here.

keystone

Sounds like you've found a jobsworth totally lacking in common sense when following the rulebook exactly to the letter. What he will want you to do if he gets his way is have the windows exactly as they were when it was listed. Did you get your discussions with the council recorded in some way?

Cheers

Graye

Unfortunately I didn't make any notes etc of the conversation.

When a property is listed is there any record of exactly what the building looked like at that point? I don't think we even have any photos to prove how awful it looked. I'm not sure it is the buyers causing the problem here but their solicitor.

MX5huggy

Ask your solicitor if you can get an insurance policy to cover inforcment action being taken. Do not contact the council about this matter, as the insurance is then invalid.

Graye

Thanks for that. I understand from a quick look at a few sites that [FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]an indemnity is not available with regard to listed buildings permission so it looks as if we will have to throw ourselves upon the mercy of the Planning Authority at some point, although I'll make sure we pursue whatever other avenues there are first.
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Canucklehead

Hi,

You might find some other answers/help on the house buying and selling forum.

One thing I have noticed from watching various TV property !!!!!! shows is that the one part of the local authority you don't want to hack off is the listed buildings department.

They have the last word.

SPAB are a good source of info (if you haven't already found them)

You might have to bite your tongue when talking to the local authority.
Do whatever you can to keep them onside.
Always have a written record of any decisions.

I would say if you want to resolve this quickly you will have to do whatever they say. It doesn't matter to them if it drags on for months or years.


GSR

System

it doesn't matter what year the house was listed and the condition of it at that point, once it's listed they usually insist on replacement anything(s) being as they would have originally been (which seems a bit silly, but thems the rules)

the lesson here is no matter what someone tells you on the phone from the council, you have to get a written record confirming their advice, especially important when they say you don't require permission for something!

not really sure the best way forward, you could apply for pp, get a refusal and then take it to appeal, can sometimes work if you can pester a local councillor! however, conservation officers can be particularly bloody minded about some things

leveller2911

Listed Planning Consent doesn't work in the same way as normal Planning Permission.Listed planning officers take get advice from English Heritage with regards to what to allow and dis allow but at the end of the day its their opinion that matters and if they think a Georgian style window is not in keeping then they can make you take them out and put in what they regard as being right.Many won't allow double glazing full stop and things like Stormproof sashes (sash sticks out in front of the frame) are a big no no along with wide glazing bars.If they deem it should be Cottage style your sashes have 6 glazing appatures then you may get away with just changing the sashes.

It really is a minefield and I often have to do scaled drawings for Listed Planning.I would suggest trying to have a site visit from the LPO so they can see the existing windows in context........But I very much doubt there will be a quick solution because when your dealing with Listed Houses nothing is done quickly.


OP can you post a photo or two of the windows that you had put in?. The company that supplied/fitted the windows should have known you required Listed Planning Permission.Even if your house wasn't listed and you wanted to replace windows then the company who fitted them would need to be either FENSA registered of the work carried out under a Building Notice(form of Planning Permission) and this has been the rule/Legal Requirement for years now.

Graye

I've spoken in an anonymous way to the person dealing with listed building work at the council. She listened to all the information and said there was a fair chance they might well decide not to enforce any order as the windows have been in for five years, are not in an area visible from the street, are hardwood and not visually out of line with the attached property. However I think if it really comes down to it and they are "condemned" or the sale falls through because of this we will just replace the windows to their instruction, there are only four of them and not large ones either. It does some very unfair as there are many simiilarly old properties which must also be listed in the immediate vicinity with at least some ugly white UPVC double-glazed windows.

However our solicitor has found an indemnity policy so I suppose unless they want to lose their property (or their double-glazing) the purchasers might go with that.

Thanks for all the suggestions, lots to consider!