Student Loan 2015 Discussion

Derivative

2sides2everystory wrote: »

My son is exploited by the retail industry.

Could you explain this in a little more detail?

With regards to a £65000 household income.
I am studying a 4 year degree. My annual rent, travel and utilities are expected to be about £3500 during term time. My tuition fees are around £3500 a year too.

Four years of that, with modest inflation, adds up to around £25-27k. I expect to spend around £30k after food and other expenses, minus any part time work.

Said household could pay for that entire degree course in a year, with ample left over for other expenses.

By contrast, if you're in the lowest band with under £16000 household income, £30k is a sum that would take at an absolute minimum three or four years to spend if you lived on rice and beans and didn't leave the house.

Whether or not the household is 'wealthy' is not really relevant to the issue at hand, which is whether or not they can afford to help out with the cost of children's education. £9000 fees make it harder, sure, but still extremely manageable for a family with such means.

£65k gross puts you in something like the top 10% of earners in the UK.

edit: With regards the £25-27k figure, I forgot to mention that costs were lower in Year 1 and Year 2, higher in Year 3 and 4. So it's not simply £7k*4.

2sides2everystory

Why would I need to be good at debating? There no debate. There are no insults - there is merely offence taken. There is more importantly the unfurling of a national tragedy.

And get you with your "deeper knowledge of higher education" :cool:

This isn't about Higher Education - it is about privatisation of it which means those that should be receiving it as the right of our most honorable citizens are being sold it now down the river as mere punters with little chance of them ever fighting against the current to return and see the right thing done for their own offspring.

Edit for EdgEy: You are not an example of those who are about to suffer the 2012 scenario EdgEy. You are something else. My eldest son looks like he'll be studying in London. How do you think your figures might stack up for a typical London student?

Derivative

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Why would I need to be good at debating?

There is more importantly the unfurling of a national tragedy.

I am a student. I am not wealthy. I do not think that £9000 fees represent a tragedy for higher education in the UK. Unfortunate for students, yes, tragedy is perhaps rather a dramatic description.

Derivative

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Edit for EdgEy: You are not an example of those who are about to suffer the 2012 scenario EdgEy. You are something else. My eldest son looks like he'll be studying in London. How do you think your figures might stack up for a typical London student?

Annual rent would probably be around £2000 more per year, adding to £8000 over a course.

Of course, London students get more support by Student Finance under the 2011 system. I have not studied the 2012 system but I would be surprised if that didn't still exist.

edit: Did I mention that choosing to study in London is completely optional?
I had an offer from a London university and decided that it probably wasn't worth the extra costs, however much fun I would have had staying in the capital.

The_One_Who

There's no debate after a twenty-five page thread? There have been insults, calling posters dumb, telling me to do some "joined-up thinking" and the other comments are insults. Obviously you can't see that.

This is about higher education. This thread isn't about the future economy (there are other threads on other boards for that), it is about student loans. Of course the two are linked, but not the extent you seem to be implying.

We can't keep harking back to the old "the MPs got their education for free therefore it should continue to be free" line. The world doesn't work like that. The NHS used to give everything (including dentistry and optometry) for free, but that didn't last very long. A lot more people are going to university now, and they are expecting a lot more than a lecture, a reading list and a library card.

I would prefer that the government hadn't cut almost all of the teaching grants for some universities, I would prefer a combination of both fees and government subsidy, but that is not happening so you need to work within the system that is presented to you.

tyllwyd

EdgEy wrote: »

Could you explain this in a little more detail?

With regards to a £65000 household income.
I am studying a 4 year degree. My annual rent, travel and utilities are expected to be about £3500 during term time. My tuition fees are around £3500 a year too.

Four years of that, with modest inflation, adds up to around £25-27k. I expect to spend around £30k after food and other expenses, minus any part time work.

Said household could pay for that entire degree course in a year, with ample left over for other expenses. ....

But remember tax - assuming that there is a single wage earner then their take home pay is £44K not £65K. Still doesn't exactly put them on the breadline, granted, but it doesn't look anywhere near as generous as the gross figure. And remember this household gets no tax credits, housing benefit, etc, no discounted tuition fees, and soon no child benefit either.

2sides2everystory

The_One_Who wrote: »

There's no debate after a twenty-five page thread? There have been insults, calling posters dumb, telling me to do some "joined-up thinking" and the other comments are insults.

I merely sow the seeds, TOW, if you wish to pluck them straight off the ground and choke on them, then please don't get all of a twitter over it, missus I did not suggest ONW was dumb, but dumbed-down. I invited you to join up the boxes you had just pointed at broadly called something like "elsewhere but not here thanks".

This is about higher education. This thread isn't about the future economy (there are other threads on other boards for that), it is about student loans. Of course the two are linked, but not the extent you seem to be implying.

Come on TOW, you can surely see that the two are inextricably linked? How on earth did the same part of the US economy become a greater debt than credit card debt if the greater woes of the national economy were not directly linked to the privatisation of student finance?

Do you think the UK is somehow firewalled against the same sort of problem?

I am not harking back to any "the MPs got their education for free therefore it should continue to be free" line.

A lot more people are going to university now, and they are expecting a lot more than a lecture, a reading list and a library card.

A lot more are going to what passes as "university" - very true. Did I dream it or did I hear something this week that the notion of a "starred" first class honours degree is the latest form of dealing with the overall dumbing down of universities in the UK?

... so you need to work within the system that is presented to you.

Why would I willingly do that? I didn't vote for it and it stinks - and incidentally you don't like it either but you are for accepting it because ... ? Are you for example issuing a veiled threat on behalf of whoever generally persecutes the nay sayers when shocking decisions are made on behalf of national governments? Comply or else ? Should I expect a knock on my door before the summer is out ?

Derivative

tyllwyd wrote: »

But remember tax - assuming that there is a single wage earner then their take home pay is £44K not £65K. Still doesn't exactly put them on the breadline, granted, but it doesn't look anywhere near as generous as the gross figure.

While one earner is relatively unlikely, I take the point. I don't really feel it's necessary to work out the exact numbers in this case as anything above £30k post tax gives you ample opportunity to save unless you're paying the mortgage on Buckingham Palace.

And remember this household gets no tax credits, housing benefit, etc, no discounted tuition fees, and soon no child benefit either.

Those would be more relevant for a household earning £20-25k net, not £40k+.

Derivative

2sides2everystory wrote: »

A lot more are going to what passes as "university" - very true. Did I dream it or did I hear something this week that the notion of a "starred" first class honours degree is the latest form of dealing with the overall dumbing down of universities in the UK?

The overall dumbing down is essentially a consequence of free/cheap tuition. When University is seen as a way to avoid working and party for a few years, that's what you get.

melancholly

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Did I dream it or did I hear something this week that the notion of a "starred" first class honours degree is the latest form of dealing with the overall dumbing down of universities in the UK?

this isn't new. it's an established way of recognising those with truely outstanding performance on their course/in their exams. it is offered at very few universities, but these include Oxford (called congratulatory), Cambridge and York. these are not institutions that are 'dumbing down'. often there are no starred firsts in a subject in any given year. it's a grade given out in exceptional circumstances to exceptional students. but it isn't new and has nothing to do with dumbing down.

a simple google or look at wikipedia could have explained this. it is often helpful to check what facts really are before making assumptions that can end up looking rash.