Student Loan 2015 Discussion

ally39

okay, i know fees are paid, but she still has to live. I'm not sure she will qualify for the means tested bursary as we are probably just outside the threashold, yet our debt situation means we can't support her. Therefore 50% of what everyone else get is unfair.

JimmyTheWig

ally39 wrote: »

means tested ... is unfair.

I agree. Means testing is always unfair.
I don't understand why they don't just scrap means testing and tax the higher earners more to compensate.

In this instance that would be totally appropriate. The better off parents would pay more tax and the students would still get their money.

Lokolo

JimmyTheWig wrote: »

I agree. Means testing is always unfair.
I don't understand why they don't just scrap means testing and tax the higher earners more to compensate.

In this instance that would be totally appropriate. The better off parents would pay more tax and the students would still get their money.

If that were to happen I'd leave the country and pay less tax elsewhere. And I am sure most others would follow.

There is a point where taxing more and more becomes ineffective.

JimmyTheWig

Lokolo wrote: »

There is a point where taxing more and more becomes ineffective.

I agree.
But there is little difference, in some ways, between means testing and taxation.
Take tax credits, for example. For every pound you earn gross you lose 40p in tax credits.
So on any extra money that you earn you pay 20% income tax, 12% NI and lose 40% in tax credits. That's 72%. Before any other means testing comes in (such as suddenly losing child benefit if you hit a certain income).

If that were to happen I'd leave the country and pay less tax elsewhere. And I am sure most others would follow.

In which case I don't understand why they haven't already, given they are currently paying, in effect, 72% tax.
Or are you saying that 72% is ok but higher than that and people would start leaving the country? Fair enough. I could cope with a higher rate tax (maybe for those earning £100k+) of 72%. We could probably [I haven't done any calculations, just thinking as I'm typing] then afford to stop means testing.

I don't see that it's fair that if I earn an extra £1000 I see £280 of it but if someone earning £100k earns an extra £1000 they see £580 of it. But we are all expected to carry on working as hard as we can while its accepted that those high earners would stop working (or leave the country) if they were taxed at the same sorts of levels that we are.

Lokolo

JimmyTheWig wrote: »

In which case I don't understand why they haven't already, given they are currently paying, in effect, 72% tax.
Or are you saying that 72% is ok but higher than that and people would start leaving the country? Fair enough. I could cope with a higher rate tax (maybe for those earning £100k+) of 72%. We could probably [I haven't done any calculations, just thinking as I'm typing] then afford to stop means testing.

Don't forget this is British people we are talking about. I think the psychological effect of seeing 72% disappear out of your pay packet is different to seeing 32% disappear but then realising you don't have the tax credit income.

Personally I feel there are too many benefits as it is so a lot of them I would scrap and keep taxes that are there, and use the money elsewhere (education and health for example).

And I agree to a certain extend that means tested is unfair, I got EMA when I was in sixth form, didn't need it, I had 2 part time jobs. I also know someone who got it and didn't need it but got it because he lived with his mum who didn't work (parents divorced, dad moved out and still paid for everything). I think if people really are determined it won't matter if they are given extra money because they can make it work (although it could end up having a class effect back in the old day).

Do other countries in Europe have the same types of benefits as the UK?

JimmyTheWig

Lokolo wrote: »

And I agree to a certain extend that means tested is unfair, I got EMA when I was in sixth form, didn't need it, I had 2 part time jobs. I also know someone who got it and didn't need it but got it because he lived with his mum who didn't work (parents divorced, dad moved out and still paid for everything).

Exactly. I just think it would make more sense to give EMA to everybody and, in your two examples, tax you on your two jobs plus EMA (if that brought you over the threshold) and your friend's dad.

Do other countries in Europe have the same types of benefits as the UK?

I have no idea, to be honest. Good question, though.

Oldernotwiser

ally39 wrote: »

okay, i know fees are paid, but she still has to live. I'm not sure she will qualify for the means tested bursary as we are probably just outside the threashold, yet our debt situation means we can't support her. Therefore 50% of what everyone else get is unfair.

It isn't 50% of what everyone else gets; that's what all student nurses get.

She'll be £18,000 better off than non nursing students who have fees to pay, so it's swings and roundabouts really.

What calculator have you been using for this as I didn't think that the one for 2012 was available yet.

ally39

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

It isn't 50% of what everyone else gets; that's what all student nurses get.

She'll be £18,000 better off than non nursing students who have fees to pay, so it's swings and roundabouts really.

What calculator have you been using for this as I didn't think that the one for 2012 was available yet.

I think you are missing the point. Yes, she'll be better off after she leaves uni cos she won't have tutition fees to repay, but non nursing students get £5500 maintenance grant to pay for rent, food, etc and she will only get half of that.

The calculator I used was the current one, I am aware this is not the 2012 one, but its all I have to go on.

Oldernotwiser

ally39 wrote: »

I think you are missing the point. Yes, she'll be better off after she leaves uni cos she won't have tutition fees to repay, but non nursing students get £5500 maintenance grant to pay for rent, food, etc and she will only get half of that.

The calculator I used was the current one, I am aware this is not the 2012 one, but its all I have to go on.

There's no need to have a go at me; I don't make the rules and I was only answering the question you put in your first post.

I would wait and see what the situation is when more information comes out regarding assessment on parental income in 2012. The calculator doesn't even cover current degree students, only those doing a DipHE and even the universities offering nursing degrees don't seem to know exactly how the bursaries will be assessed.

AndrewRH

Typo in Item no.11: "They are known as thya re known as These are usually paid in three termly instalments direct to students' bank accounts. "