Sash Window Reinstatement & FENSA

TMoose

Hi All

I have bought a house which currently has uPVC double-glazing badly forced into the boxes of Edwardian box-sash windows. I am looking into the cost to have the original-style wooden sash windows reinstated. I am getting a number of quotes, however I wanted to ensure that the works I have done meet the required standard.

One of the the companies that has quoted is not FENSA registered because they claim that because they are only "repairing" the window, a FENSA certificate is not applicable.

I have read the FENSA website, however it is not clear if full reinstatement of a window within an existing frame requires certification or not...

Can anyone here shed any light?

Thanks

Moose

Gloomendoom

I'm not sure I'd be looking to FENSA for advice. They have a vested interest, after all.

If I were in your shoes I'd just go for the best job. The carcases of the original windows are still there so in effect they are being repaired.

sashman

Gloomendoom wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd be looking to FENSA for advice. They have a vested interest, after all.

If I were in your shoes I'd just go for the best job. The carcases of the original windows are still there so in effect they are being repaired.

Yes they have a vested interest in making certain installers comply with building regulations! what else?

This sounds to me like a window fitter using "refurbishment" as an excuse. If the sash were being repaired then fine its not reportable, but when a new window is being fitted, thats a replacement EVEN if its into the old box frame.

Its companies like that which give this industry such a bad name.

There are other bodies like certass or even local building control but a new window is a replacement, and it only costs a few quid.

sashman

leveller2911

The rule is :if you are replacing/repairing any part of the Boxframe window then you do NOT need to notify anyone. This can be anything from re-newing a sash(sliding part of the Boxframe) to replacing a rotten sill.

If however you are going replace the entire boxframe window then thats different. If the company carrying out the work is not FENSA registered (which the vast majority of Joinery companies are not) then you need to contact your local council and apply for a "building notice".This notifies them of your intention to carry out replacing the window.In this case they will charge you a fee and may or may not do a site visit to check to see that the work complies with building regs.If the company carrying out the work is FENSA registered which nearly all Upvc companies are then they will give you a certificate on completion of work to state that the work complies with the building regs....

Summing up, if your keeping any part of the existing window frame you don't need to tell anyone anything...Architraves inside of the window are not classed as part of the window..

leveller2911

sashman wrote: »

This sounds to me like a window fitter using "refurbishment" as an excuse. If the sash were being repaired then fine its not reportable, but when a new window is being fitted, thats a replacement EVEN if its into the old box frame.


That would not be classed as a complete new window as they are keeping the original boxframe so they don't need go down the FENSA or a Building notice route they are free to carry out the work...

IMO I think its a waste of money putting Upvc in existing timber Boxframes , seen far too many of them rot before the Upvc goes brittle and dis-colours..

Gloomendoom

sashman wrote: »

Yes they have a vested interest in making certain installers comply with building regulations! what else?

Sorry, maybe I have misunderstood. I was under the impression that FENSA were a trade association. The aim of most trade associations is to promote the interests of their members.

leveller2911

Gloomendoom wrote: »

Sorry, maybe I have misunderstood. I was under the impression that FENSA were a trade association. The aim of most trade associations is to promote the interests of their members.

It is a sort of trade association in that they are self regulating and it costs money to join....It is suppose to guarantee that all work conforms to regulation the problem is within the self regulating bit.Ive seen some shoddy work done by FENSA members and also non FENSA members....
FWIW I think the idea is right just not implemented correctly as I'm yet to see anything self regulating actually work.

sashman

leveller2911 wrote: »

sashman wrote: »

This sounds to me like a window fitter using "refurbishment" as an excuse. If the sash were being repaired then fine its not reportable, but when a new window is being fitted, thats a replacement EVEN if its into the old box frame.


That would not be classed as a complete new window as they are keeping the original boxframe so they don't need go down the FENSA or a Building notice route they are free to carry out the work....

WRONG ADVICE. If a sash has replacement sash or glass etc its a repair. Fitting a window into the old frame IS fitting a replacement window and therefore reportable to fensa.

People who fit "inserts" into the existing frames will use casements that reduce the daylight area, they generally have fixed panes which prevent exit in an emergency and fall short of decent ventilation causing mould.

In addition to all this casement inserts destroy the character of homes

sashman

leveller2911

sashman wrote: »

leveller2911 wrote: »

WRONG ADVICE. If a sash has replacement sash or glass etc its a repair. Fitting a window into the old frame IS fitting a replacement window and therefore reportable to fensa.

People who fit "inserts" into the existing frames will use casements that reduce the daylight area, they generally have fixed panes which prevent exit in an emergency and fall short of decent ventilation causing mould.

In addition to all this casement inserts destroy the character of homes

sashman

Sashman, if you care to read the OP,s post they are looking into taking out the hideous Upvc inserted frame thats been put in an tradtional Edwardian Wooden boxframe and replacing it with wooden traditional boxframe sashes.

This is NOT a complete new system or Upvc (which they would need permission) all they are doing is having new sashes made for an existing Boxframe and as such DOES NOT require a buidling notice or Fensa they are free to carry out the work without notifying anyone.If they rip the whole frame out then thats different..

I actually agree with you regarding the lack of escape routes and ventilation and also your last comment too but the Op isn't looking to fit a Upvc or a wooden subframe into an existing wooden Boxframe he just wants to reinstate 2 wooden sashes thats all....

Theres a clue in the post its "reinstate"

leveller2911

TMoose wrote: »

Hi All

I have bought a house which currently has uPVC double-glazing badly forced into the boxes of Edwardian box-sash windows. I am looking into the cost to have the original-style wooden sash windows reinstated. I am getting a number of quotes, however I wanted to ensure that the works I have done meet the required standard.

One of the the companies that has quoted is not FENSA registered because they claim that because they are only "repairing" the window, a FENSA certificate is not applicable.

I have read the FENSA website, however it is not clear if full reinstatement of a window within an existing frame requires certification or not...

Can anyone here shed any light?

Thanks

Moose

If you were going to put Upvc subframe in the existing wooden Boxframe then YES you need a building notice or Fensa registered company..
OR
You are having the Upvc subframe taken out of the existing Wooden Boxframe and then having new wooden sashes made to be fitted in your nice wooden Boxframe then NO you don't have to have a FENSA registered company do the work nor do you need to get a Building notice approval........

I hope thats clarified the facts........:D

TMoose

Thanks leveller, that's exactly what I needed - it's the second scenario... get rid of ugly uPVC, put in new lovely wooden sashes into existing boxes

Thanks all for your help. Most informative!

Moose