Advice please ... complicated tenancy problem

taxsaver

may_fair wrote: »

Ernie cannot alone surrender the tenancy, however, because the tenancy is periodic, she (or Bert) could serve NTQ and this would end the tenancy at notice expiry. But - if Bert didn't move out, you'd still need a court order to evict him.

Interesting angle (as yours always are May_Fair). If Ernie were to give NTQ, could Bert then withdraw it, or once given by either party is it irrevocable?

pmlindyloo

taxsaver wrote: »

Interesting angle (as yours always are May_Fair). If Ernie were to give NTQ, could Bert then withdraw it, or once given by either party is it irrevocable?

If you have a periodic tenancy, or the fixed-term has ended and your tenancy has not been renewed, one tenant can end the whole tenancy and does not need the agreement of the other joint tenants. However, the landlord must be given a valid written notice and there are special rules about how and when this must be done.
(Shelter web site)

poppysarah

Why does the HB only come to her? Do they know he's lived with her?

may_fair

taxsaver wrote: »

Interesting angle (as yours always are May_Fair). If Ernie were to give NTQ, could Bert then withdraw it, or once given by either party is it irrevocable?

No, Bert couldn't withdraw Ernie's notice - her notice would unilaterally end the tenancy (if this weren't the case, joint tenants would be unable ever to end the tenancy without the cooperation of all other JTs).

Nor could Ernie withdraw her own notice without the LL's agreement.

DVardysShadow

may_fair wrote: »

Assuming this is a statutory periodic AST, the LL's s.21(4)(a) notice must give T at least two months' and also expire at the end of a tenancy period.

The tenancy periods begin the day after the fixed term expires and their length is based on the frequency with which rent is payable, not the date rent falls due. Whilst tenancy periods often coincide with rental periods, it is not always the case.

For example, take a six month term commencing 15th January, with rent payable monthly on the 1st of the month (the first 16 days' rent paid pro rata); the tenancy periods would commence 15th July and run 15th - 14th of the month, and LL's s.21 notice would have to expire "after 14th [month/year]".

I think you are correcting me unnecessarily here. The rental period is the same as the tenancy period and not to be confused with the rent due date.

may_fair

DVardysShadow wrote: »

I think you are correcting me unnecessarily here. The rental period is the same as the tenancy period and not to be confused with the rent due date.

In the example I give:

For example, take a six month term commencing 15th January, with rent payable monthly on the 1st of the month (the first 16 days' rent paid pro rata); the tenancy periods would commence 15th July and run 15th - 14th of the month, and LL's s.21 notice would have to expire "after 14th [month/year]".

the tenancy periods run 15th - 14th of the month, whereas the rental periods run 1st - last day of the month. The example was intended to demonstrate that tenancy periods and rental periods are not the same, (albeit they do often coincide).

DVardysShadow

may_fair wrote: »

In the example I give:

For example, take a six month term commencing 15th January, with rent payable monthly on the 1st of the month (the first 16 days' rent paid pro rata); the tenancy periods would commence 15th July and run 15th - 14th of the month, and LL's s.21 notice would have to expire "after 14th [month/year]".

the tenancy periods run 15th - 14th of the month, whereas the rental periods run 1st - last day of the month. The example was intended to demonstrate that tenancy periods and rental periods are not the same, albeit they do often coincide.

You are making out I am confusing a date with a period. The only sensible interpretation of a rental period is that it is the same as a tenancy period. The period between one rent due date and the next does not have a name. It is totally meaningless as a period.

As I initially did not mention rent due date, I think you are invoking confusion where there was none. Note also that the term 'tenancy period' is inherently ambiguous because it could mean the whole of the period a tenant is in residence or it could mean the assured term of a tenancy. I chose to use the term 'rental period' in order to be quite clear that I was talking about the period paid for by an instalment of rent. Please give me credit for addressing the issue you are concerned with from the outset by deliberatley avoiding describing it in terms of rent days.

may_fair

DVardysShadow wrote: »

You are making out I am confusing a date with a period.

No, I am saying that a rental period is different to a tenancy period.

The only sensible interpretation of a rental period is that it is the same as a tenancy period.

No, it's not.

The period between one rent due date and the next does not have a name. It is totally meaningless as a period.

It's called a rental period.

As I initially did not mention rent due date, I think you are invoking confusion where there was none.

You mentioned serving notice to expire at the end of a rental period. I was attempting to clarify that a s.21(4)(a) notice must expire at the end of a tenancy period, not a rental period.

Note also that the term 'tenancy period' is inherently ambiguous because it could mean the whole of the period a tenant is in residence or it could mean the assured term of a tenancy.

No, the term of the tenancy is called the term or the fixed term, not the period. Tenancy period is not an ambiguous term; it is what is referred to in s.21(4) HA1988.

(4)Without prejudice to any such right as is referred to in subsection (1) above, a court shall make an order for possession of a dwelling-house let on an assured shorthold tenancy which is a periodic tenancy if the court is satisfied—
(a) that the landlord or, in the case of joint landlords, at least one of them has given to the tenant a notice in writing stating that, after a date specified in the notice, being the last day of a period of the tenancy and not earlier than two months after the date the notice was given, possession of the dwelling-house is required by virtue of this section;

Which is why a s.21(4)(a) notice must expire at the end of a tenancy period.

I chose to use the term 'rental period' in order to be quite clear that I was talking about the period paid for by an instalment of rent.

In my example, the period paid for by an instalment of rent is the period 1st - last day of the month, i.e. a rental period. And rent periods are not relevant when calculating the expiry date of a s.21(4)(a) notice, only the frequency with which rent is payable is relevant as this dictates the length of the tenancy periods.

G_M

Whoa! Interesting discussion on the niceties of tenancy language, but not really helping the OP!

I think the OP (and the rest of us) have got the idea as to when a Notice period starts/ends. Let's leave the naming business aside and get back to the issue!

BitterAndTwisted

OP: if you want Bert out of the property and to enter into a new agreement with Ernie I suggest you arrange one of two things:

Either Ernie gives written one month's notice to you and sends a copy to Bert to let him know that the joint-tenancy will be coming to an end.

Or you serve them two month's notice and when Bert has vacated sign a new contract with Ernie alone.