Advice please ... complicated tenancy problem

casperlarue

Could anyone give me some advice on how to resolve a complicated tenancy problem.....

Background Info
I rent a 2 bed flat to an unmarried couple (lets call them Bert and Ernie) and their 10month old baby. They are both named on the tenancy agreement, it's a periodic tenancy running from the 11th of each month. Full rent paid every 4 weeks by Housing Benefit, claim in Ernies name only. Ernie's mum is guarantor for the deposit.

Current situation
This morning I received a text from Ernie saying that her and the baby have left the flat and have been temporarily housed in a hostel. She wants to go back to the flat but she wants Bert to go, can I help her?

Bert won't leave the flat, he says he wants his mum to move in with him. Bert doesn't work, his mum works full time.

Thinking aloud.....I would rather Ernie and her baby were living in the flat as the housing benefit will continue to pay her rent. However, to remove Bert I would have to serve a S21, unless she can talk him into leaving (unlikely) so the earliest he would be leaving is mid August

Also, as a young single man Bert won't get much in the way of housing benefit but he says his mum will make up the rent.

What do I do now?? If Ernie doesn't go back what do I have to do to end the tenancy between her and Bert so I can set up a new tenacy with Bert and his mum. Does Ernie have to surrender her tenancy or can she refuse to do so?

Any advice gratefully appreciated ,... thanks for reading this far!

DVardysShadow

What do you mean "Ernie's mum is guarantor for the deposit."? Either you have a deposit, or you don't!

In your position, I would be serving a section 21 notice. I could not be doing with their domestic strife. And if you did serve a section 2, you would do better not to take on Ernie as tenant, because Bert would cause you complications.

taxsaver

... is the property in Albert Square by any chance?

casperlarue

taxsaver wrote: »

... is the property in Albert Square by any chance?

Nah gov'nr .... to meet their standards there would have to be at least 4 kids plus a few other relatives bobbing in and out!

bris

I would go for the mother and baby every time, but it's not going to be up to you to choose. The problem you have is that if Bert is going to be stubborn then by the time you get him out, Ernie will have found somewhere else.
You need to protect yourself here and not get involved in the relationship dispute by taking sides.
The LHA will now stop, so the only concern you have is making sure the rent continues, have a new guarantor agreement drawn up for the mother so she is jointly liable for the rent, if you don't then he could just stop paying and all the mother would be liable for is the deposit. make sure the agreement is legal, as it's very easy to get this wrong.

pmlindyloo

Some useful advice here about joint tenancies:

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/renting_and_leasehold/joint_tenancies

casperlarue

bris wrote: »

I would go for the mother and baby every time, but it's not going to be up to you to choose. The problem you have is that if Bert is going to be stubborn then by the time you get him out, Ernie will have found somewhere else.
You need to protect yourself here and not get involved in the relationship dispute by taking sides.
The LHA will now stop, so the only concern you have is making sure the rent continues, have a new guarantor agreement drawn up for the mother so she is jointly liable for the rent, if you don't then he could just stop paying and all the mother would be liable for is the deposit. make sure the agreement is legal, as it's very easy to get this wrong.

Thanks Bris, the rent payment is my biggest concern. Can I refuse to accept Bert and his mum as new tenants? Ernie is keen to get back to the flat, but obviously I have to do everything legally and above board.

pmlindyloo

casperlarue wrote: »

Could anyone give me some advice on how to resolve a complicated tenancy problem.....

Background Info
I rent a 2 bed flat to an unmarried couple (lets call them Bert and Ernie) and their 10month old baby. They are both named on the tenancy agreement, it's a periodic tenancy running from the 11th of each month. Full rent paid every 4 weeks by Housing Benefit, claim in Ernies name only. Ernie's mum is guarantor for the deposit.

Current situation
This morning I received a text from Ernie saying that her and the baby have left the flat and have been temporarily housed in a hostel. She wants to go back to the flat but she wants Bert to go, can I help her?

Bert won't leave the flat, he says he wants his mum to move in with him. Bert doesn't work, his mum works full time.

Thinking aloud.....I would rather Ernie and her baby were living in the flat as the housing benefit will continue to pay her rent. However, to remove Bert I would have to serve a S21, unless she can talk him into leaving (unlikely) so the earliest he would be leaving is mid August

Also, as a young single man Bert won't get much in the way of housing benefit but he says his mum will make up the rent.

What do I do now?? If Ernie doesn't go back what do I have to do to end the tenancy between her and Bert so I can set up a new tenacy with Bert and his mum. Does Ernie have to surrender her tenancy or can she refuse to do so?

Any advice gratefully appreciated ,... thanks for reading this far!

I would have thought that if Ernie and baby want to return to the flat then as a joint tenant she has the right to do so. If Ernie wants her OH out and she is unable to negotiate with him then she needs to get advice about how to get him out. Is she in a hostel because of domestic violence? (She may be able to get an occupation order)

It is indeed complicated!:(

DVardysShadow

casperlarue wrote: »

Thanks Bris, the rent payment is my biggest concern. Can I refuse to accept Bert and his mum as new tenants? Ernie is keen to get back to the flat, but obviously I have to do everything legally and above board.

You can refuse - must refuse - to take Bert and mother as new tenants while the current tenancy is running. At the moment, Bert and Ernie are the tenants and you cannot choose between them. You cannot stop Bert living there if Ernie goes back. It is nothing to do with you about their living arrangements and if you choose one ove the other, you would be in breach of the tenancy agreement.

In your position, I would be serving a Section 21 notice now for the earliest date - either 2 months after the end of the current rental period or at the end of the assured period if this is later. And if you choose to let Ernie and baby stay on with a new tenancy, do appreciate that Bert may think that he has rights in a way which he would not if Ernie took on a new tenancy at another address.

It IS hard, but I fear you will just prolong their domestic grief if you let either continue.

may_fair

casperlarue wrote: »

... to remove Bert I would have to serve a S21, unless she can talk him into leaving (unlikely) so the earliest he would be leaving is mid August

You can't evict just one of the joint tenants. You would have to evict both. And a s.21 notice is not a notice to quit; it does not end the tenancy nor oblige T to vacate. It merely entitles you apply for possession after the notice expires.

What do I do now?? If Ernie doesn't go back what do I have to do to end the tenancy between her and Bert so I can set up a new tenacy with Bert and his mum. Does Ernie have to surrender her tenancy or can she refuse to do so?

There is no tenancy between Ernie and Bert; the tenancy contract is between you and 'the tenant' (i.e. Ernie and Bert together). Ernie and Bert have equal entitlement to occupy the rental property, and Ernie remains a tenant even though she's moved out.

The only way you can unilaterally end the tenancy is by serving notice and applying for possession after the notice expires.

For there to be a surrender of the tenancy, (or an amendment of the current contract, e.g. removing Bert as one of the joint tenants), all parties - Ernie, Bert and you - would have to agree. Ernie cannot alone surrender the tenancy, however, because the tenancy is periodic, she (or Bert) could serve NTQ and this would end the tenancy at notice expiry. But - if Bert didn't move out, you'd still need a court order to evict him.

Assuming Bert won't cooperate, then all you can do is serve notice etc. Once the joint tenancy has legally ended you can re-let to whoever you like.

may_fair

DVardysShadow wrote: »

In your position, I would be serving a Section 21 notice now for the earliest date - either 2 months after the end of the current rental period or at the end of the assured period if this is later.

Assuming this is a statutory periodic AST, the LL's s.21(4)(a) notice must give T at least two months' and also expire at the end of a tenancy period.

The tenancy periods begin the day after the fixed term expires and their length is based on the frequency with which rent is payable, not the date rent falls due. Whilst tenancy periods often coincide with rental periods, it is not always the case.

For example, take a six month term commencing 15th January, with rent payable monthly on the 1st of the month (the first 16 days' rent paid pro rata); the tenancy periods would commence 15th July and run 15th - 14th of the month, and LL's s.21 notice would have to expire "after 14th [month/year]".