House or education

chewmylegoff

Cleaver wrote: »

In terms of a professional career, what 'good jobs' can you get and then climb the corporate ladder in without a degree?

accountancy - do A-levels, then AAT accounting technician qualification, then ACA or ACCA (and maybe CIMA but I'm not sure). quite a lot of people do this, i've no idea what the stats are but when I started work in 2001, there were 25 trainees in my year at my firm, 18 of them had degrees and 7 were school leavers doing AAT (or !!!!!! exams, as we called them, because snobbery is good). i think 4 of the AATs went on to get ACA, and another one did ACCA.

you can get into most professions without a degree: chartered surveyor, solicitor, teacher etc. the "normal" route into all of these professions is an undergraduate degree, but it is possible without a degree.

Oldernotwiser

chewmylegoff wrote: »

accountancy - do A-levels, then AAT accounting technician qualification, then ACA or ACCA (and maybe CIMA but I'm not sure). quite a lot of people do this, i've no idea what the stats are but when I started work in 2001, there were 25 trainees in my year at my firm, 18 of them had degrees and 7 were school leavers doing AAT (or !!!!!! exams, as we called them, because snobbery is good). i think 4 of the AATs went on to get ACA, and another one did ACCA.

you can get into most professions without a degree: chartered surveyor, solicitor, teacher etc. the "normal" route into all of these professions is an undergraduate degree, but it is possible without a degree.

There is no route into school teaching without taking a degree at some point.

Cleaver

chewmylegoff wrote: »

accountancy - do A-levels, then AAT accounting technician qualification, then ACA or ACCA (and maybe CIMA but I'm not sure). quite a lot of people do this, i've no idea what the stats are but when I started work in 2001, there were 25 trainees in my year at my firm, 18 of them had degrees and 7 were school leavers doing AAT (or !!!!!! exams, as we called them, because snobbery is good). i think 4 of the AATs went on to get ACA, and another one did ACCA.

you can get into most professions without a degree: chartered surveyor, solicitor, teacher etc. the "normal" route into all of these professions is an undergraduate degree, but it is possible without a degree.

Apologies, you're quite right. But I meant without a degree or equivalent qualification. My perspective is that if you're doing CIMA or ACCA then you're working at a Masters level anyway. Point taken though.

I still gotta say though, if I were a teacher, accountant, solicitor etc. I would feel more confident having a good undergrad degree from a decent Uni on my CV to complete against most of my peers that would have one. But I fully accept that it's not the be all and end all.

chewmylegoff

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

There is no route into school teaching without taking a degree at some point.

http://www.tda.gov.uk/about/~/link.aspx?_id=720F876325064823AA6B2AC40BA6DAA7&_z=z

this seems to say otherwise, although admittedly you require some form of higher education over and above a-levels.

chewmylegoff

Cleaver wrote: »

Apologies, you're quite right. But I meant without a degree or equivalent qualification. My perspective is that if you're doing CIMA or ACCA then you're working at a Masters level anyway. Point taken though.

I still gotta say though, if I were a teacher, accountant, solicitor etc. I would feel more confident having a good undergrad degree from a decent Uni on my CV to complete against most of my peers that would have one. But I fully accept that it's not the be all and end all.

i do quite a lot of recruitment of lawyers and accountants with 2-5 years post qualified experience. i've never come across a lawyer who didn't go to university, so can't comment on that, but from the point of view of accountant CVs, i would say that relevant experience gathered at a well known firm or institution is approximately 405,425,134,677 times more important than a degree.

the only time i can think of when a degree affected my decision making process is when someone didn't have enough relevant work experience in the field we require, but had a first from cambridge + ACA. if it had been a cv with a degree from a red brick uni + ACA, or no degree and AAT/ACA, that CV would normally have been chucked in the bin. as it turned out i should have chucked it in the bin anyway!

churchrat

I grew up in a tiny council house with no central heating and older family members who were illiterate. It was on a rotten estate and we were bullied by other residents. We were a "traveling family" until my nan decided to settle the family as my grandad was ill. We were poor, but there was a great deal of love, understanding and pride given to all of the children.

I went to grammar school, had a fantastic education and now have a degree ( took a while though). Lots of my cousins have done the same. The house you grow up in, in my opinion, does very little to the person that grows up in it. The home, however, means everything. The self respect that a loving home gives a child will carry the person through life and onto whatever education they want to give themselves. I worked for my degree as an adult and with children of my own.
Having said that, if you are not as lucky as I was then a good school can make so much difference. My children have all gone to state grammar schools (youngest just left) and have had friends from unsupportive families. The schools do a great deal to help the children and I am sure that the extra help is there because the grammar schools do not have the problems associated with "sink" schools.

Bricks and mortar have nothing to do with a childs education. Where the bricks and mortar ARE can make a huge difference if the family is not supportive. To have a loving family and a good school is the best of all worlds. We have mortgaged house in an ok part of a crap area which is near FANTASTIC state schools. But we always thought about the childrens schooling before we moved house. If the parents value a house over the child I believe that the child wll never do as well as they should, no matter what school they go to or what house they live in.

Pupnik

Cleaver wrote: »

I still gotta say though, if I were a teacher, accountant, solicitor etc. I would feel more confident having a good undergrad degree from a decent Uni on my CV to complete against most of my peers that would have one. But I fully accept that it's not the be all and end all.

Without meaning to sound harsh to graduates most graduates do not go on to be solicitors, accountants, teachers etc and most do not have good undergrad degrees from decent unis. Most graduates study something they enjoy whether it is History, Music, Art, English, Media Studies etc and most do not go to well respected universities, and increasingly more work in jobs that do not require degrees such as office work. I still think studying for the sake of learning is a great thing but I just know that if I have to advise a child I would recommend they spend some time in the working world, find out what they really, really want to do and whether a degree would really benefit them. Nobody has to do a degree straight after A-levels/ gap year. My sister, for example, left education after getting a GNVQ which was able to get her into a role she was passionate about. She worked in that field for many years before eventually deciding she had reached as high as she could really go and that she would need to go back to education. She is now 30 and doing a degree as a mature student and working part time- I expect that when she graduates her work experience in her chosen field will be in her favour, compared to her young classmates. Likewise, I took time out between my undergrad and my masters and worked and saved up money so I could do my MSc without a loan. Tomorrow I am starting a really great job with a great company and although my Masters definitely helped me get that role a lot of it was also based on the responsibilities I had had in my previous role. As a mature student I felt my attitude to my course was completely different- not that I was ever a slacker (always been a bit of a nerd) but I had a clearer idea of what I wanted to achieve. It is the same with my sister, she has worked in the field she likes, she understands it and knows what kinds of roles are available and she works very hard. Then we can compare my younger brother, very typical of current students. He did not have a real idea of what he wants to do with a life but has made a decision to sign onto a long, expensive course that will impact his entire life. He does not really work hard, he does not cram for tests, he does not live and breathe his subject and his grades show this. I find it unlikely he will graduate with more than a 2.2, he has never worked a day in his life as he is of the EMA generation so unlike my sister and I never needed a weekend job, and now is living off his student loan. Eventually he will graduate with a not great degree, no work experience, huge debts and absolutely no idea what he want wants to do with his life. He already is treated for depression but the so called 'quarter life crisis' that so many 20 somethings experience is going to hit him hard and he will struggle. I suppose all I am saying is that you get out what you put into it with degrees and they are not great for everyone and it is a shame so many people do them just to 'go with the flow'. Perhaps the one good thing about the tuition fee increase will mean young people will question just how worth it a degree really is.

I would never want to discourage anyone from doing a degree because they can be rewarding and fun but I regret doing my undergrad as, with hindsight, I was not ready to make a choice that would affect my whole life and it was a bit of a hindrance in trying to get work when I first graduated. I wish I had chosen a more useful degree at a better university but I went with my heart and did what was fun. I'm sure things are very different for students who already know what they want to do with their lives and have a plan on acheiving it but young people shouldn't ever just coast into degrees without giving them much thought.

Sorry for the long post!

Oldernotwiser

chewmylegoff wrote: »

http://www.tda.gov.uk/about/~/link.aspx?_id=720F876325064823AA6B2AC40BA6DAA7&_z=z

this seems to say otherwise, although admittedly you require some form of higher education over and above a-levels.

To quote from your link,

"On the RTP you will be employed by a school, earn a salary, complete your degree and work towards qualified teacher status (QTS) all at the same time."

As I said,

"There is no route into school teaching without taking a degree at some point."