Notice & S21 Form from LA

franklee

may_fair wrote: »

T is liable for rent so long as the tenancy continues.

A.21 notice doesn't end the tenancy (nothing in HA1988 says it does). T vacating doesn't end the tenancy (unless it's at the expiry of fixed term).

Is that a yes to my question then, just making sure I get your point.

jjlandlord wrote: »

There's been much debate about that. It would seem logical that the tenancy ends if the tenant vacates at the end of the notice period.

Makes sense to me.

jjlandlord wrote: »

But as it is not explicit in statutes it is open to debate.

In my view, if the tenancy does not end (ie. if landlord refuses the surrender) then it should mean that the s.21 notice has been invalidated and that the landlord has in effect granted a new tenancy.

Not much use to a tenant who has taken the notice at face value and vacated.

I realise a tenant could serve their own notice but depending on how long it takes to find the next property there may not be time to do so. In which case I think may_fair is implying the tenant becomes liable for another months rent (the time it would take for them to serve notice). Or a tenant has to sit tight and hope the landlord doesn't start eviction proceedings right away (leaving the tenant liable for the landlord's court fee). Bit dammed if you do and dammed if you don't?

jjlandlord wrote: »

You cannot at the same time 'require possession' and refuse it when it is offered.

Indeed so. How is the tenant to know if it's going to be refused anyway if the landlord is free to chop and change his mind right up till or after the end of the S21 notice period.

jjlandlord wrote: »

A s.21 does not unilaterally end the tenancy.

Yes that much is very clear. I guess the issue is what the effect of the S21 together with the tenant vacating at the end of the S21 notice period means.

Any practical examples of this do you know such as a landlord getting another months rent out of a tenant who vacated when the S21 indicated?

sharpee

I think we've jumped the gun and misread the notice.

I have to admit I didn't really read it as my partner opened the letter and said we had been served our 2 months notice.

Now reading it I 'think' it is saying in 2 months i.e. 21st June 2011 they intend to either give us our required 2 months notice or extend our tenancy.

If, once I have had the LA clarify the situation, we have to pay another months rent we will. Not ideal but our fault for not clarifying a confusing letter.

I have shown the letter to a couple of LL at work and they don't really know what its intentions are either.

Confused and stressed:(

franklee

Hi sharpee, FWIW I think the S21 notice period ends 21st June 2011 so I would have interpreted it your rent liability ends then if you vacate and hand back the keys etc. by 21st June at the latest. But that's just me it seems. Can you let us know what the agent says, if it were me I'd argue the point if they disagree.

Have you checked out and handed the keys back yet? If they accepted that without complaint then that helps your argument IMO.

sharpee

Hi franklee

Unfortunately there is noone in the letting office today

I admit I didn't check the letter and took my partners word we had been given notice.

We haven't checked out yet. I was planning on dropping them a letter to arrange the check out inspection on the 21st June when I realised I hadn't heard anything from the. Last time we were moving out their property they contacted us well in advance of our move out date.

The LL sold the house in March so I am hoping they want us out as soon as possible. If not then I will serve our months notice and swallow the last months rent (will just need to do a lot of ebaying to cover the costs!)

I am glad it is not only my who is confused about this

may_fair

sharpee wrote: »

The LL sold the house in March so I am hoping they want us out as soon as possible. If not then I will serve our months notice and swallow the last months rent

There's a good chance the LL will be happy to accept a surrender on 21st June.

I take it it's the new LL's name which is on the s.21 notice?

sharpee

No its the old LL name on the form.

I should at this point note that the house had and accepted an offer on it. We only found out as we were also bidding on it but refused to pay over the top for it. I therefore assume (maybe incorectly) that we were being given notice to move out to allow 'vacant pocession' for the new owners.

jjlandlord

sharpee wrote: »

No its the old LL name on the form.

I should at this point note that the house had and accepted an offer on it. We only found out as we were also bidding on it but refused to pay over the top for it. I therefore assume (maybe incorectly) that we were being given notice to move out to allow 'vacant pocession' for the new owners.

I think you should clarify when the house was actually sold. I don't mean "offer accepted" notice, or "sold subject to contract" board, but when your original landlord actually ceased to be the owner.

If the sale has actually be completed you should have received a letter of authority from your original landlord telling you who the new landlord is, then proper notice from your new landlord to provide you an address to serve notices to him and where to pay the rent.


If the sale hasn't been completed yet and the prospective buyer requests vacant possession you are in a very strong position to negotiate the terms of you surrendering the tenancy.

may_fair

franklee wrote: »

I guess the issue is what the effect of the S21 together with the tenant vacating at the end of the S21 notice period means.

There are many who believe that a s.21 operates as a sort of offer to surrender, or, rather as an offer to accept an offer to surrender. However, there is nothing in HA1988 which says it has this effect.

The confusion perhaps arises because a s.21 must say that the LL "requires possession" but only a court can require a T to give up possession, and in reality what it's saying is "I give you two months' notice that I intend to apply for possession at some point - not sure exactly when - after the notice expires. I might even decide not to apply for possession, or I won't have to if you give NTQ or vacate at fixed term expiry. But if I do apply, the court might or might not make a possession order (e.g. if it turns out my notice is invalid)".

It cannot be the case that Tenant A can assert with the full authority of statute that the s.21 notice does not end the tenancy, and Tenant B can decide that it does.

sharpee

OK finally got hold of someone at the LA. They confirm that the owner requires pocession on the 21st June 2011.:j

I really don't understand why they didn't make that clearer! I had three other LL here at work confused over the meaning of the letter!

Complete weight off my mind and I will in future read all letter and not rely on my OH!:o

Thank you for all your advice and assistance on this I know I can always count on MSE'ers help

:T:T

franklee

Thanks for the update, glad all is well :beer: