Student travel

wealdroam

cityflier82 wrote: »

So why do season ticket holders get treated differently from railcard holders who make genuine mistakes.

Well that's a easy one.

A season ticket holder who forgets their season ticket, has to buy a new ticket for that day.

He can claim a refund because he can clearly show that he has a ticket already valid on that day.

The railcard holder however will find it difficult to show that he already has a valid ticket.
Remember, the discounted ticket isn't valid without the railcard.

melancholly

one thing i'll say in favour of virgin trains is that they always have announcements before the train leaves about what restrictions there are for the service. they warn you about having the right ticket for the right train and how much it'll cost if you don't have a valid ticket. now they won't do this at every station, but they are fairly upfront about the rules - they don't hide them.

it rubbish when this happens but (way back when!) i had a YPR, i realised when i got to the station that i'd left it behind. i knew they'd check me so i had to buy another ticket before i boarded (which was cheaper than getting one on the train!). i guess my moral of the story was to bring my YPR. i couldn't blame the train company or the ticket inspector; it was my fault (and i was pretty mad at myself!). the rules of using the YPR are pretty well laid out and there isn't any excuse for not knowing. yes it's rubbish and maybe some ticket inspectors would have let it slide, but unfortunately trying to make all the blame external isn't going to help..... the person who didn't have the full YPR is responsible and shouldn't make excuses.... sorry! (i also don't see why the two portions would ever be kept separately)

Stigy

cityflier82 wrote: »

So why do season ticket holders get treated differently from railcard holders who make genuine mistakes? Rail operators should target fare evasion - Virgin, in particular, don't give a damn about protecting their revenue in places such as the West Midlands.

Rail staff aren't mind readers. Who's to say that somebody with a YP discounted ticket that forgets their photocard or discount card isn't a persistant fare evader that does the same thing every day, thus saving them a fortune on rail fares?

I think this case is a little different, given that the OP's Son had part of the proof needed when using a discounted ticket, and that was shown in the discretion used by the staff when dealing with him. Penalty Fares are meant as a deterrent, and if the revenue staff believed a delliberate attempt had been made to evade a fare, a Penalty Fare would not have been appropriate. Penalty Fares are meant as a civil remedy for an otherwise criminal matter. Unfortunately, like it or not, the person concerned was in breach of the ticket's T&C, therefore VT acted by the book as far as I can see. Afterall, they're not obliged to issue a Penalty Fare and could have reported the facts, with the potential to visit the Magistrates' Court, meaning the potential for much worse outcome.

student_parent wrote:

the ticket checkers seem very heavy handed.Then to make matters worse the next time he travelled he got on the wrong train by mistake as there were three waiting marked with the same destination.He was then told to leave the train and had to pay £60 fare to get home.

Could be quite true, and I'm sure that some staff are heavy handed, but if I had a pound for every person who comes on here or other Forums and said the same thing, I'd be a millionaire by now!

thelawnet

wealdroam wrote: »

Well that's a easy one.

A season ticket holder who forgets their season ticket, has to buy a new ticket for that day.

He can claim a refund because he can clearly show that he has a ticket already valid on that day.

I lost my annual season ticket, twice, and they refused to replace it the second time (in t&cs). Apparently the reasoning is someone else could use it because they are not cancellable. Even though we've already heard in the OP that a photocard without an accompanying pass in useless, when it comes to it they will try to maintain that a ticket with no valid photocard is a big risk.

Ended up claiming for it on my house insurance.

bb21

student_parent wrote: »

I wanted to alert all students and parents to the pitfalls you can fall into traveling on Virgin Trains following my student son's experience.

I'm sorry to say that reading from your account of things I really can't see Virgin have done anything particularly wrong. Harsh, yes, but perfectly entitled to their actions.

student_parent wrote: »

He recently got fined £139 for traveling with only the photocard part of the student railcard as nobody had told him you needed both parts of the card for it to be valid.

Like others have said, it is a very expensive fare, not a fine. A fine is something only a court can impose. Yes such a high fare does feel like a fine in all but name, however the ticket originally purchased with Y-P discount is not valid without the railcard. I do think that the railcard format can be more consistent to avoid confusion as currently ones bought online come in only one complete piece whereas ones from stations come in two parts. Unfortunately it was his own fault for having not brought it with him. You can plead with Virgin customer services by writing to them and you have my best wishes getting some money back, however the most I can say is learn the lesson, albeit that it is an expensive lesson.

There may also be other things he might have been able to do to avoid such a high fare being charged. If you could tell us more about when he discovered that one part of his railcard was missing, what the journey was, what ticket he already held and which train he travelled on then we might be able to offer more suggestions.

student_parent wrote: »

This was a big blow as I had just persuaded him of benefits of saving money on the train compared to using a car when in fact the reverse was true.

Sorry to hear that. I hope he still has confidence using the railway. Like I said earlier, he really has no one else to blame for this but himself.

student_parent wrote: »

the ticket checkers seem very heavy handed.Then to make matters worse the next time he travelled he got on the wrong train by mistake as there were three waiting marked with the same destination.He was then told to leave the train and had to pay £60 fare to get home.

Again he needs to learn from the experience. If he checked departure times on the screen then he should have realised that he was on the wrong train. These things happen in life. Unfortunately wherever we are in life, carelessness costs. We all learn by experience.

student_parent wrote: »

In both cases this seems unfair as he had paid for a ticket and thought he was doing the right thing.So please take extra special care to ensure they are on the right train and have all the necessary bits of paper as otherwise it could cost you dear.

Yes I agree totally. As yorkie has pointed out earlier, the matter has recently been debated on a railway forum and I think the official line currently in place is very heavy-handed without the reliance on discretion shown by staff, which can vary widely, as it is a privilege rather than an entitlement.

student_parent wrote: »

Young people do seem to be treated worse in these situations and he felt like a criminal .Recently the same thing happened to me on a southern train and I had caught a later train but the guard allowed me to travel as I had a ticket for that route.

Do you have any evidence in support of that? Did you have an Advance ticket or else? If you had an Advance ticket for that journey then you were extremely lucky, in my opinion, that the guard used his discretion on that occasion. This does not mean that it should, or would, become normal practice for all guards in those situations. There might have been other reasons why the guard was lenient towards you that time, such as possible disruption somewhere on the network resulting in more discretion being shown.

I genuinely hope these incidents have not left your son with too much a psychological scar travelling on the railways.

bb21

cityflier82 wrote: »

I bet Yorkie is a railwayman who insists on sticking to T&Cs whcn customers make genuine mistakes. Take season ticket holders. If they forget their pass, some rail operators allow them to claim the refund of the daily ticket they had to buy if sending it in along with a copy of their season ticket. I found out about this last year when I held an annual First season from Coventry to Euston, forgot my pass one day and was told I could claim back the cost of the £107 daily ticket which I later did from Virgin.

I nearly choked on my coffee when I read this. My suggestion is that one should not make assumptions about other people as you could be offending someone who has arguably the most knowledge in this area.

yorkie's actions speak for himself and does not need defending.

cityflier82 wrote: »

So why do season ticket holders get treated differently from railcard holders who make genuine mistakes? Rail operators should target fare evasion - Virgin, in particular, don't give a damn about protecting their revenue in places such as the West Midlands.

I wonder if you could satisfy my curiosity on the following points:

How is a season ticket similar to a railcard?
How do you tell who made a genuine mistake and who was deliberately trying it on?
How do you know that Virgin made no effort to protect their revenue in the West Midlands? Could you quote me some examples?
How do you know that rail operators were not making an effort to target fare evaders? Could you quote me a source?

I eagerly anticipate your response.

bb21

gilbert_and_sullivan wrote: »

It comes under the ''little bit of power and by God we're going to enjoy it'' heading.

I believe that in the case of a minority of railway staff this is certainly true, however I fail to see the relevance of this comment in the OP's case.

yorkie2

cityflier82 wrote: »

I bet Yorkie is a railwayman who insists on sticking to T&Cs whcn customers make genuine mistakes.

Does someone who insists on sticking to T&Cs say "... An extortionate fare, and I don't agree with it,..." and "... I agree, the 'punishments' are harsh..." and "...I believe it would be fairer to charge an admin fee (£10) plus the difference between the fare paid and the Anytime fare due...."?

Guards can show discretion, and some do. However the rules allow for them to charge a new ticket, which is extremely harsh in cases of higher value tickets.

melancholly wrote: »

it rubbish when this happens but (way back when!) i had a YPR, i realised when i got to the station that i'd left it behind. i knew they'd check me so i had to buy another ticket before i boarded (which was cheaper than getting one on the train!

Why did you buy a new ticket?

If you present the ticket to the ticket office they should excess the ticket, by charging you the difference between the price of the discounted and non-discounted tickets. I have done this before, and I know others who have.

If the ticket is not open, then you can do this on board by informing the guard of the fact.