addition and subtraction

Lunar_Eclipse

janome wrote: »

Hi all.

I hope I'm in the right place for a query of this type, but I am wondering at what stage (if ever) children are taught vertical addition and subtraction. My granddaughter is in year 8 (set 2 of 7) and from what I see she is still adding and subtracting using number lines and/or breaking larger numbers into thousands, hundreds, tens etc and adding/ subtracting horizontally. Hope I've explained that correctly.

Being of an older generation I was taught to add/subtract in vertical columns, carrying to the next column. I can see how the horizontal approach is a big help to understanding when teaching number in earlier years but I am wondering at what stage, if ever, the vertical method is used. It seems so cumbersome using the horizontal method with larger numbers.

I know there are some members on the forum who know about these things.

My children were both taught this in junior school, starting in Y3 (or maybe even Y2), age 7. They are now in years 4 and 6 and both use the traditional vertical method that you mention, without fail, when needing to add, subtract or multiply numbers. I am fairly confident it is in the primary school curriculum for Key Stage 2 SATS that children across the country take in Y6, before moving on to secondary school.

I would ask your grand daughter what method other children in her set use. Set 2 will be for fairly bright children that the school typically expect to achieve grade A*-B at GCSE, ie those who are good at Maths, grasp concepts quickly and usually (but not always) use the more traditional methods we learnt at school.

I would be wondering if your daughter missed a few key lessons several years ago so never became comfortable with this method. Alternatively, how good was her primary school at teaching Maths? Could they have been really poor in this area?

mrcow

For my son, it was taught at the beginning of year 4 too.

mintymoneysaver

pozalina wrote: »

Numeracy methods have changed to a range of different strategies, and vertical isn't really taught in schools now. I think it was considered a method that caused confusion. Some of the newer methods are actually ways people naturally do in their heads, and as a pp said, the emphasis is on the understanding.

I was taught vertical addition/subtraction and I remember sitting down to do homework with my dad who had been taught a simillar method but he told me I had to 'pay back' what I had 'borrowed'! Totally confused me, so I would be careful about trying to teach the vertical method to DGD.

It is still taught. By year 6 children should be confident with a written method of addition and subtraction. We NEVER pay back though, and we don't 'borrow' we 'take' or 'exchange'.

pixelation wrote: »

Written methods are usually introduced during yr 7-9. That said, most maths exams are calculator only, so it is less common to need a vertical written method and more important to understand the process.

Much earlier, and I always make sure my group could do sums without a calculator if they needed to!

kingfisherblue wrote: »

Vertical addition/subtraction is taught in primary school, although these days it is referred to as 'column sums'.

Some topics are only revisited once a year - I don't know if column sums are in this category.


A child in Y8 will certainly have learned vertically written sums, but may not have grasped them very well as it is only a little time (as little as a week a year, so about five hours) is spent on learning them.

Thankfully addition and subtraction are revisited much more than some of the other topics. It's at least two weeks every term.

milliebear00001

Just a small point about the terminology pointed out in the post by Lunar Eclipse. I would be wary of relying on 'Set 2' as meaning anything at all. Her school may have a completely different way of setting (perhaps set 1 is at the bottom?!) I find it difficult to believe a child still using a number line to add and subtract in year 8 would be in one of the highest sets - unless the school is very small and perhaps only has two sets.

FATBALLZ

janome wrote: »

Hi all.

I hope I'm in the right place for a query of this type, but I am wondering at what stage (if ever) children are taught vertical addition and subtraction. My granddaughter is in year 8 (set 2 of 7) and from what I see she is still adding and subtracting using number lines and/or breaking larger numbers into thousands, hundreds, tens etc and adding/ subtracting horizontally. Hope I've explained that correctly.

Being of an older generation I was taught to add/subtract in vertical columns, carrying to the next column. I can see how the horizontal approach is a big help to understanding when teaching number in earlier years but I am wondering at what stage, if ever, the vertical method is used. It seems so cumbersome using the horizontal method with larger numbers.

I know there are some members on the forum who know about these things.

From what I've heard maths is now taught more in line with actual thought processes, I think they call it 'chunking' or something. Breaking numbers down and adding them in parts is what I've always done (and I'm better at mental arithmetic than 99% of people) and I'm pretty shocked it took the educational establishment so long to cotton on that this is the natural way to do it in your head.

Knowing how to add in columns is a good skill to know but far less useful than being able to do it in your head (unless you want to look like a weirdo walking round tesco for 6 hours trying to work out the best deal on each item by scribbling in a notepad).

Let's not pretend the 'older generation' are mathematical geniuses, most of them are pretty hopeless at maths in my experience.

BitterAndTwisted

FATBALLZ wrote: »

Let's not pretend the 'older generation' are mathematical geniuses, most of them are pretty hopeless at maths in my experience.

Sad, but true. If you did a straw-poll I'm confident that a majority wouldn't be able to work out ten percent of anything without a pen and paper.

Asking a work-colleague to calculate the 17 1/2% VAT on £500 in her head brought complete consternation.

Anyway, mathematics is a world away from simple arithmetic

Owl

Column method is taught in Primaries, but should be only after children have a firm grasp of the number line and place value - else it becomes meaningless....

I taught an exceptionally gifted mathematician last year, he had excellent place value knowledge so I taught him column methods. By choice he always used a number line because "I can see what the numbers are doing!".

I think if she is confident and happy using the number line then leave well alone!! As another poster said, it's how you do Maths in your head, so possibly makes more sense...

Owl x

ellay864

I remember DS1 at the age of 7 telling the shop assistant she'd charged us wrong and she'd added them up on a till (rang in numbers, not scanned items) She just laughed at him but he pointed out that there were 3 prices ending in odd numbers and one in an even number, so the total had to be an odd number...which it wasn't according to her. He then told her what it should have come to. I hadn't really been paying attention as I was preoccupied with finding purse but I asked her to check and sure enough he was right...I let him buy a comic with what she'd overcharged me

GlasweJen

An interesting point about the secondary assuming that the primary has taught it already so she might not ever be taught it.

When I was in primary 5 my teacher left in October due to health reasons (he died shortly after) and we had a sucession of substitutes for almost 6 months until we finally got a permanant teacher in April. During those 6 months we never really learned much and the later 10 weeks were used to fill any massive gaps to get us through national tests (I'm in Scotland, term ended in June).

I have never to this day learned how to long divide, I can quite happily long multiply but I have never learned long division and I've tried to self learn it but I just get jumbled up.

peachyprice

Another one here who's children were taught column method in yr 3/4 at school, although I taught them it myself long before that.

OP, generally once the get to secondary school they are free to use which ever method they are most comfortable with, perhaps your GD ws taught the column method but perfers the one she uses.

Isn't chunking/partioning/ supposed to make mental arithmetic easier?