permit use of vehicle with no insurance

vaio

dacouch wrote: »

An employer has the same duty of care towards an employee who uses their own car for business as they do an employee who uses a company car.

The chances of a Corporate Manslaughter / Homicide are quite remote but it is feasible in certain circumstances.......

There is certainly a H&S duty of care together with the civil vicarious employer liability but I'm still struggling to see how a criminal RTA offence can be committed by my failure to inspect an employees personal insurance documentation.

If it was the case then there is no way I can defend against as it's an absolute offence, me inspecting it yearly/monthly/daily won't protect against forged or cancelled certificates.

Apart from the general illogicality of it, how would it work in practice? Who gets convicted? foreman? manger? director? MD? company secretary? what about non incorporated employers?

dacouch wrote: »

......There is now also a specific law on causing death whilst driving a vehicle uninsured, I'm not sure whether this could be extended to an employer under aiding and abetting though

http://businessdatabase.indicator.co.uk/article.php?nlid=UKTACDAR_EU100902&domid=74&src=related

I'm pretty sure you can't aid & abet passively, it has to be an active act

That link is subscription only so I can't see it

alastairq

I agree Its my responsibility to do my best and I did as far as I am concerned.
European directives states that an insurance policy purchased in one of the EU states is valid throughout the EU at the minimum level of cover
eg third party for a motor insurance

that would apply to the insured vehicle...

For insurance taken out on a vehicle in another [EU] country to be valid in the UK, that insurer must be registered on the MID....

A lot of insurers in other EU countries are not registered with the MID.

To be registered on the MID, Insurers have to comply with certain criteria, which do not always suit some foreign insurance companies.

What encouraged the Police to stop your vehicle in the first place?

aagill

he got caught on a speed camera 51mph on 40mph temp limit
I got 'notice to owner'

Hammyman

HappyMJ wrote: »

Who is "we"? Wouldn't a claim by an insured idiot be covered by exactly the same "we"?

No. It would be covered by the policy holders of that insurance company and not every policy holder of any insurance company in the UK.

dacouch

vaio wrote: »

There is certainly a H&S duty of care together with the civil vicarious employer liability but I'm still struggling to see how a criminal RTA offence can be committed by my failure to inspect an employees personal insurance documentation.

If it was the case then there is no way I can defend against as it's an absolute offence, me inspecting it yearly/monthly/daily won't protect against forged or cancelled certificates.

Apart from the general illogicality of it, how would it work in practice? Who gets convicted? foreman? manger? director? MD? company secretary? what about non incorporated employers?



I'm pretty sure you can't aid & abet passively, it has to be an active act

That link is subscription only so I can't see it

The driver

Competency

Are you satisfied that your drivers are competent and capable of doing their work in a way
that is safe for them and other people?

Do you check the validity of the driving licence on recruitment and periodically
thereafter

The vehicle

Suitability

Are you satisfied that vehicles are fit for the purpose for which they are used?

Do you ensure that privately owned vehicles are not used for work purposes unless
they are insured for business use and, where the vehicle is over three years old, they
have a valid MOT certificate?

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg382.pdf

vaio

DA, as in #72 above, I know there is a H&S duty of care and a possible civil vicarious employers liability for staff using their own cars on business (and indeed for anything else they do whilst at work)

What I don’t accept is your assertion that employers can be criminally liable under RTA if an employee uses their own car on business in an illegal manner whether it be lack of insurance, MOT or speeding.

Apart from the logical & practical issues in #72 if the law imposes a duty on me to inspect insurance certificates then it would also specify how often I need to do it, give me the ability to ensure that the certificate is valid (not forged or cancelled) and provide a statutory defence to me if I followed the rules and it still turned out the driver was uninsured.

Lack of insurance is a serious generally absolute offence but I really can’t see that there is anything in the RTA that makes me responsible for a vehicle that I neither own or drive

As always, fulsome apologies will be heading your way if you can produce case law to support your view.

thenudeone

alastairq wrote: »

that would apply to the insured vehicle...

For insurance taken out on a vehicle in another [EU] country to be valid in the UK, that insurer must be registered on the MID....

But only if the vehicle is UK registered.

Obviously, a Polish vehicle covered by a Polish insurance certificate is covered in the UK.

But if a Polish driver buys a UK registered car and buys an insurance policy for it from a Polish insurer, that DOES NOT satisfy the requirements of the law.

aagill

wrong

Motor vehicles may be insured by an insurer established in the Member State of registration or by an insurer established in any other Member State.
EU Directive 2009/103/EC


EG if I remember right QUINN DIRECT is Irish company, not British and sells motor insurance in the UK (it may have sister company here, though)

alastairq

aagill wrote: »

wrong

Motor vehicles may be insured by an insurer established in the Member State of registration or by an insurer established in any other Member State.
EU Directive 2009/103/EC


EG if I remember right QUINN DIRECT is Irish company, not British and sells motor insurance in the UK (it may have sister company here, though)

To insure a UK-reg car with a foreign insurer, that insurer still requires to meet the criteria for registration on the MID..

Some.....but not all, EU-based [but non-UK] insurers meet those criteria....others do not, therefore their cover is not valid within the UK...

If a UK insurer does not comply with the MID criteria, then the same applies....

If a UK policyholder finds their policy is not registered on MID..and their car is impounded, then the insurer is open to all sorts of compensatory claims....as a colleague recently discovered.

thenudeone

aagill wrote: »

wrong

Motor vehicles may be insured by an insurer established in the Member State of registration or by an insurer established in any other Member State.
EU Directive 2009/103/EC

EG if I remember right QUINN DIRECT is Irish company, not British and sells motor insurance in the UK (it may have sister company here, though)

From the horse's mouth:
http://www.mib.org.uk/Motor+Insurance+Database/en/MID+Faqs/Foreign+insurers+and+the+MID.htm

Can foreign insurers load data to the MID?
In the main only insurance companies that operate in the UK can load data to the MID.

Companies who operate outside the UK but have Financial Service Authority (FSA) approval AND are MIB members AND insure UK registered vehicles, can load data to the MID

And also
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/Motorinsurance/DG_067628

Once a vehicle has been registered in this country its use must be covered by a motor insurance policy issued by a motor insurer authorised in the UK

So while it is technically possible for a foreign insurer to provide valid cover for a UK car but the vast majority won't be eligible.