Could claim benefits...but choose not to! Why?

anguk

melly1980 wrote: »

We also used to live in caves, we also used to wait for lightning to strike before we could have a fire to keep warm, we also used to throw board dusters at kids in school for not doing homework. Just because we used to do something doesnt make it the right way or the best way. It may be that the previous way was right for that time and those set of circumstances, while needing a different approach now. Im not championing the current system by any stretch since it is flawed but its not as bad as some suggest.

I'm not saying it was the right or best way! But there is no doubt at all that financially you get much more help now from the state than you did back then.

I'm all for the tax credit system to help the less well off, I certainly remember how much of a struggle it was when I had my kids and I'm glad low income families get much more help now. I do however think it's a shame that often the first thing people think about when deciding to have kids is how much benefit can we get and then decide if the state won't pay for childcare then they won't bother working.

However I do think something needs to be done about childcare costs, it's ridiculous that nurseries can charge such high amounts simply because the government will pay towards the cost. Nurseries are now like some private landlords and some private care homes and charge the maximum they can get out of the government. It's absolutely shocking that the state is paying sometimes upwards of £1000 a month to private nurseries on top of what they're actually paying to the parents. It seems to me that the only people gaining are the nurseries while both parents and the state are getting screwed.

And now that there's cutbacks the government aren't paying as much toward childcare and parents have to find the extra money. Nurseries aren't going to reduce their fees because they know that parents are now trapped into paying the fees.

melly1980

anguk wrote: »

I'm all for the tax credit system to help the less well off, I certainly remember how much of a struggle it was when I had my kids and I'm glad low income families get much more help now. I do however think it's a shame that often the first thing people think about when deciding to have kids is how much benefit can we get and then decide if the state won't pay for childcare then they won't bother working.

However I do think something needs to be done about childcare costs, it's ridiculous that nurseries can charge such high amounts simply because the government will pay towards the cost. Nurseries are now like some private landlords and some private care homes and charge the maximum they can get out of the government. It's absolutely shocking that the state is paying sometimes upwards of £1000 a month to private nurseries on top of what they're actually paying to the parents. It seems to me that the only people gaining are the nurseries while both parents and the state are getting screwed.

And now that there's cutbacks the government aren't paying as much toward childcare and parents have to find the extra money. Nurseries aren't going to reduce their fees because they know that parents are now trapped into paying the fees.

I agree with a lot of that. There is one thing I will say though, the nurseries are not the goldmine that people think they are. Ive seen several references to greedy nurseries etc and for me it is from people who lack the understanding of the cost of running a nursery. They dont make that much.

anguk

melly1980 wrote: »

I agree with a lot of that. There is one thing I will say though, the nurseries are not the goldmine that people think they are. Ive seen several references to greedy nurseries etc and for me it is from people who lack the understanding of the cost of running a nursery. They dont make that much.

That's a fair point, I must admit I know little about the costs of running a nursery but in my area the average fees seem to be about £250 a week per child full-time, if they've got say 30 kids that adds up to quite a bit. Granted they have running costs but judging from other parents I've spoken too I can't imagine their wage bill to be massive, they seem to just have a few qualified nursery nurses the rest of the staff seem to be either college placements or helpers earning a minimum wage.

They must be making a decent profit otherwise there wouldn't be so many of them in business.

dibblersan

michelle1506 wrote: »

I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as to say "well people used to manage so people will just have to now".[/QUOTE]

sorry, busy day at work today.

I don't think anyone actually said that.

I, personally, feel that people would be amazed at what they could do if they had no choice. if the government turned round tomorrow and scrapped all forms of benifit, or if (heaven forbid) their partner died and they were forced into having only one income and a mortgage.

they would survive.

saying that you would HAVE TO give up work is, in my opinion, in the a number of cases, incorrect. in my opinion it's the worst case scenario that may be the result should other things not work out first.

It would be one choice but there would be other choices. maybe not as nice a choice, but still valid choices.

this thread is about benifits as a whole - i thought - and what I'm saying doesn't relate directly to child care, it's simply an explanation of why i wouldn't and haven't in the past claimed benifit, and for why my oh doesn't claim.

eyeinthesky

melly1980 wrote: »

Its true.

I saw it with my own eyes 3 days ago on a p60

It was called something like childrens tax credit (I wasnt married at the time so couldnt have been married mans allowance) and it added ~5000 onto my tax free allowance giving me at the time about 9500 to earn before paying tax.

Im not saying that there was a system that gave as much as this one (clearly not true) but there was a child tax credits system. You just might not have been aware of it. I wasnt until reading these boards and seeing an old P60. Its just something that happened.

Other than that, a lot of good points in your post thgat I agree with

Now I know why I didn't get any...my daughter is now 32, lol, so it all came along too late for me.

melly1980

anguk wrote: »

That's a fair point, I must admit I know little about the costs of running a nursery but in my area the average fees seem to be about £250 a week per child full-time, if they've got say 30 kids that adds up to quite a bit. Granted they have running costs but judging from other parents I've spoken too I can't imagine their wage bill to be massive, they seem to just have a few qualified nursery nurses the rest of the staff seem to be either college placements or helpers earning a minimum wage.

They must be making a decent profit otherwise there wouldn't be so many of them in business.

I dunno where you live but that seems excessive. Around here you can get a full time place for ~150 - 160 per week. Also remember the majority of nursery places are for under 4's since 4 and over are at school. With this in mind most staff to child ratios are 3:1 so the most you can make per member of staff is 450 - 500 per week. Even if you load up with 18 - 20 year olds at 4.90/hr your still paying 200 / week in wages from that 450 - 500 quid. Thats without all the other stuff to go with it. You really do need to be able to get (as you say) a good 30 kids in to make it a pretty good business.

melly1980

anguk wrote: »

judging from other parents I've spoken too I can't imagine their wage bill to be massive, they seem to just have a few qualified nursery nurses the rest of the staff seem to be either college placements or helpers earning a minimum wage.

From my knowlege of it Im not sure they can do that (or at least they arent allowed). Things may have changed though. My understanding is that to fall within a ratio you must be qualified either with the old NNEB or the newer NVQ's. Either which way you have to be 18 to have these and so will automatically fall into the 4.99 / hour (or whatever it is) NMW. Any 16 year olds there are not to be counted to the ratios, though I dont doubt nurserys try to wing this.

anguk wrote: »

They must be making a decent profit otherwise there wouldn't be so many of them in business.

nah, you just post a zero profit and claim tax credits

anguk

melly1980 wrote: »

From my knowlege of it Im not sure they can do that (or at least they arent allowed). Things may have changed though. My understanding is that to fall within a ratio you must be qualified either with the old NNEB or the newer NVQ's. Either which way you have to be 18 to have these and so will automatically fall into the 4.99 / hour (or whatever it is) NMW. Any 16 year olds there are not to be counted to the ratios, though I dont doubt nurserys try to wing this.

Thanks for explaining, as I said I know nothing about the running costs, I was just guessing. Looking at a few websites for nurseries around here it appears that the average ratios are:
Birth to two - one staff to 3 kids
Two to Three - one staff to 4 kids
Three to five - one staff to 8 kids
So the biggest money spinner would be the 3 to 5 year olds.

melly1980 wrote: »

nah, you just post a zero profit and claim tax credits

:rotfl:

GobbledyGook

Some nurseries may not be making loads, but lots are.

The one near me charges as follows -

£170 a week for Babies - 9 babies = £1530 per week
£160 a week for 2-3 years - 12 of = £1920 per week
£160 per week for 3-5 - 60 of = £9600 per week

That's £678600 per year which is pretty much guaranteed as they only accept children on a full time basis and have a waiting list due to a shortage of places locally.

Staff wise they have 1 room "manager" who is a qualified nursery nurse per room then staff they call "childcare practitioners" who attend college 1 day per week.

So they have 4 room managers earning aorund £20k = £80,000
Baby room has 3 other young staff on min wage, Toddler room has 3 staff on min wage and the pre-school rooms have 3 staff on min wage each. I'm not sure of a full-time min wage exactly? Say £12,000 each? - 12 staff on 12k = £144,000

Above that they have 2 office staff on around £14,000 each (I know their wages as they are advertising atm). = £28000. They have an overall Nursery Manager that is on around £25000/30000.

So a wage total of somewhere around £282,000. Leaving £396600 to take off rates and other costs.

Also I'm not sure how much they charge, but the same place offers breakfast club, after-school care, holiday care, the awkward bit when children start school but are only in half a day and offer early starts and late finishes.

They also charge parents for tonnes of extras - art materials, music time, gym time etc. Obviously not all are making the kind of money this one is, but there is at least 4 locally who are charging similar amounts. This one even let go our nanny when she became fully qualified because they only 'need' 1 fully qualified member of staff per room and don't need the extras.

tooldle

Don't forget the employers NI and any pension contributions, partiuarly if they employ early years teachers. Then there are all the expenses to consider, cost of food, materials etc, possible vehicle to maintain for pick ups and drop off, insurances,heating, lighting, registration costs. It is profitible otherwise no one would do it, but not the cash cow that people think.