Help! offered salary below nmw but want the job, best way to negotiate?

AimeesMum_2

Very true Oldernotwiser...I forgot all about that

LittleVoice

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

You're forgetting all the extra costs (employers' NI for one) that an employer incurs when taking on a member of staff. That's why so many use agency staff, because it's so much cheaper than employing someone direct.

As we mustn't forget that the employer pays Employers NI and holiday pay for agency staff (as well as a profit for the agency) - it's all rolled into the agency fee.

It does not mean that agency staff are cheaper - unless the marginal cost of payroll staff or payroll agency is greater than the agency profit element or there are contributions to an occupational pension. However it can be more flexible.

toberemembered

I'd like to get the terms (things like agreed pro rata overtime pay, number of hours expected, hourly rate) confirmed in writing by the manager, where do I stand legally on this, are they obliged to do this for me? They definitely dont offer a written contract.

anamenottaken

toberemembered wrote: »

I'd like to get the terms (things like agreed pro rata overtime pay, number of hours expected, hourly rate) confirmed in writing by the manager, where do I stand legally on this, are they obliged to do this for me? They definitely dont offer a written contract.

Your employer is required by law to provide written particulars within two months of your starting work there. (It doesn't have to be before you start.)

The details required include pay, hours, leave entitlement. See http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/EmploymentContractsAndConditions/DG_175704 for further details.

Premier_2

toberemembered wrote: »

I have been offered a full time position by a company I worked for previously in a part time role....

Previously they were paying me £6.25ph in a 18 hour per week position. But now they have offered me £12500 for a 40 to 45 hours per week role, that works out as £6ph at best but for 45 hours which seems likely its only £5.34! ...

...

toberemembered wrote: »

... They definitely dont offer a written contract.

Please do explain the attraction of this employer who, even if they are not breaking the law over NMW, are certainly doing so if they refuse to provide a written contract of employment to their employees.

With these issues before you even accept a position, you can be 99.999% sure it will be all down hill from here on in...:cool:

(No agency would have recruited for them without first having a contract in place)

toberemembered

I know it seems pretty dire but I really need the work and I havent had any luck with applications elsewhere. I figure as long as I get everything sorted and in writing before i start I should be okay and I can always keep looking or leave if it gets too bad. Is it that unusual not to provide a contract? The company own 3 hotel/restaurant businesses and employ quite a number of staff, in this branch there are 3 chefs, 2 managers, 7 waitresses, 2kp's and 2 housekeeping all without contracts.

LittleVoice

toberemembered wrote: »

I know it seems pretty dire but I really need the work and I havent had any luck with applications elsewhere. I figure as long as I get everything sorted and in writing before i start I should be okay and I can always keep looking or leave if it gets too bad. Is it that unusual not to provide a contract? The company own 3 hotel/restaurant businesses and employ quite a number of staff, in this branch there are 3 chefs, 2 managers, 7 waitresses, 2kp's and 2 housekeeping all without contracts.

Depends what you mean by "a contract". The "contract" is the agreement between employer and employee, not a piece of paper.

The written statement of employment particulars doesn't have to be signed by either the employer or the employee (though many do ask for signatures).

How unusual it is not to provide written particulars? Well evidence from MSE posts would lead me to believe there are a lot of employers who fail in this. Not always deliberate omission by the employer - it could be because originally the employee was not expected to stay beyond two months and therefore it wasn't necessary to issue the written details to start with and then it gets forgotten.

patman99

Don't forget that if you are in company accommodation, then after they have taken any rent, you must still be achieving nmw before tax/ni. So if rent is £40 p/w, they need to pay you at least £6.93 p/h before stoppages. This is what cost Butlins dear when their staff all put in a claim to the relevant authorities.
Also, if you are not furnished with a contract of employment within 8 weeks of your starting date, then you are deemed to be covered by a standard contract of employment as set-out by Legislation.
This will give you a set of rights regarding holidays, sick pay and working hours.

Anyway, with wages that low, you should get a good top-up through WTC (and you will qualify for a free prescription card as well).

toberemembered

patman99 wrote: »

Don't forget that if you are in company accommodation, then after they have taken any rent, you must still be achieving nmw before tax/ni. So if rent is £40 p/w, they need to pay you at least £6.93 p/h before stoppages. This is what cost Butlins dear when their staff all put in a claim to the relevant authorities.
Also, if you are not furnished with a contract of employment within 8 weeks of your starting date, then you are deemed to be covered by a standard contract of employment as set-out by Legislation.
This will give you a set of rights regarding holidays, sick pay and working hours.

Anyway, with wages that low, you should get a good top-up through WTC (and you will qualify for a free prescription card as well).

Sorry to be dim but what do you mean by WTC and top ups?

Also I spoke to the NMW hotline on friday after some number crunching and they said that the company could charge £4.61 per day for the accomodation without it affecting NMW, anything over that and it does count towards bringing it down. I wish it was as you said and they had to pay me more! Heres the direct gov page http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/TheNationalMinimumWage/DG_175108

From what I've figured out for 24/7 occupation over a year at NMW the most they can charge is £1678.04 (£32.27*52) so they are overcharging by £321.96.

The minimum they could pay me while charging £2000 per annum for accomodation is:
£12,656.36 for a 40 hour week ((£5.93*40*52)+£321.96) or £14,198.16 for 45 hour week ((5.93*45*52)+£321.96) which is either £6.09ph or £6.07ph so theres really pennies in it. To be fair its full board included on top so im tempted to let it go as its only £15 a month but I will mention it to them all the same, if you dont ask you dont get i suppose.

Thank you everyone for your input, I feel way better about meeting and discussing this with them and hopefully I shall have some good news asap.

Edit: unfortunately doesnt look like I qualify for wtc as im under 25, but thanks for letting me know about it.

anamenottaken

patman99 wrote: »

Also, if you are not furnished with a contract of employment within 8 weeks of your starting date, then you are deemed to be covered by a standard contract of employment as set-out by Legislation.
This will give you a set of rights regarding holidays, sick pay and working hours.

To be pedantic - it's two months, not eight weeks.

Those rights (regarding holiday, sick pay, working time (and paternity, adoption etc leave)) are the statutory rights which apply from day one of employment. Right to notice applies after one month.