ESC19 and P46

rosherville

'What basis did you use for assuming the 3 amounts looked about right ? '

An assumption is just that, not a calculation. It was based on the fact that there were tax codes applied and I`d been told that tax would be deducted at source. It seems I foolishly assumed that others did there jobs in a timely and proper manner (i can remember when the Revenue were quite efficient).

jennifernil

What I mean is that you really have to have some idea first of how much you should be left with before you can say things look about right. Generally, when about to retire that is what most people worry about.....just how much they will have to live off of.

Did all your pensions start at the same time? Did you fill in a P161 detailing all your pensions, or in some other way notify HMRC that you would be receiving income from 3 pensions?

To get a code of 522 for one pension, and pay no tax on the other doesn't sound right, but without details of each pension it is impossible to say. Your State Pension has to be taken into account somewhere.

jimmo

I have a feeling that we might need to clear the air here. Speaking for myself, I am trying to help you to understand the position you are in. Speaking for other contributors to your thread I believe they too are trying to help you and none of them is a wind up merchant. The very nature of a forum means that you have to make up your own mind whether we are helping you or not.
However the cold fact is that you are facing a tax bill £1,125.00.
That is your money at risk, not ours.
Whether you like it or not, you do have a personal responsibility for your own tax affairs and you really do need to understand what has happened to have any chance of finding a way forward that is in your best interests.
First of all this is a link to a form P46.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/forms/p46.pdf
You may, or may not have seen such a form before but the cold fact is that you were required to complete Section 1. The practical effect is that if you completed it incorrectly and, based on your answers, your pension payer paid your “small” pension without tax deductions then that is your fault, nor HMRC’s.
If, as you seem to think, you did not complete section 1 of a form P46, your “small” pension payer should have deducted 20% tax from your pension and your pension payer has done wrong in not doing so.
Thus far, the problem rests with either you or your “small” pension payer and definitely not with HMRC.
There are still possibilities that the ultimate fault is down to HMRC but, as things stand, it seems more likely that the fault is elsewhere.

Pennywise

This thread has wondered off from the main point here. The "reasonable belief" test seems to be a red herring - HMRC havn't cited it as the reason for rejecting the appeal, so we can put that to one side.

The reason is that HMRC claim not to have received information. The way to argue this is to make a formal application (under Data Protection rights if necessary) to find out exactly what HMRC have received and when they received it. HMRC are obliged by law to tell you. Once you know, it will become clear whether HMRC really did have relevant information soon enough and simply failed to do so, or whether, in fact, they didn't have information and are therefore "innocent". In addition to asking HMRC, you can also ask the pension firm for any "proof" they have that they filed your P46, i.e. copy of covering letter, copy of electronic receipt if filed electronically, etc - sadly, them simply saying they submitted it isn't good enough - also, of course, a copy of the P46 is essential, from either the pension firm or HMRC.

As for "reasonable belief", remember it is ultimately the tribunals/courts who decide, and not HMRC officials nor internet forum users. For someone who's never had to deal with HMRC before then it is entirely "reasonable" to assume that the employer/pension fund/HMRC sort it out between themselves and correct the right amount of tax. You also have to bear in mind that even the HMRC website, at one time, had a comment on it's website to the effect of " if you're an employee, we'll check your tax after the year end and tell you if it was wrong" - funny how it's not on the HMRC website anymore!!!! Don't let forum users or HMRC officials "bully" you into thinking you're wrong because you didn't take responsibility for your own tax affairs - unless you're liable under self assessment, it is entirely "reasonable" to assume HMRC checks it for you!!

rosherville

Thanks for all the advice.

And thanks Pennywise, you`re correct in that the revenue had always 'decided' how much I should pay and deducted it via PAYE.

and jerniferni 'Did all your pensions start at the same time? Did you fill in a P161 detailing all your pensions, or in some other way notify HMRC that you would be receiving income from 3 pensions?

Yes, all started at the same time. How would I know about a P161 or to notify about 3 pensions, as I had every reason to believe the sources would do that; which I believe they did !

jennifernil

As someone already said, HMRC would normally send you a P161 to fill in just before you reach pension age, to ascertain if you will be receiving a pension (or pensions), roughly how much, whether you will be in employment, and whether you will have any other income. Without these details, they cannot allocate correct code numbers to your pension providers.

I would not expect, if you have 3 sources of pension, that one pension provider would know about the other 2, so the only person who could tell HMRC that you would receive 3 separate pensions would be yourself.

Until recently, apparently, HMRC computers did not tie together all incomes a person had from different sources, and that seems to be how your problem arose.

Something has gone wrong somewhere if you did not get a P161 to fill up. I remember my husband getting one about a month before his 65th birthday.

rosherville

Definitely no P161.

An NHS & State pension + the small private pension in question.

If we surmise that the pension provider is correct when they say that they informed the Revenue in January 08 and have heard nothing since.

Surely someone has failed in their duty ?

BoGoF

Pennywise, you give very good advice but I would have to take issue with your statement that it is ultimately the tribunals/courts decision as to whether it was "reasonable belief"

ESC is a concession against which there are actually no formal grounds of appeal if HMRC refuses to apply the concession.. There are other avenues such as the adjudicator/parliamentary ombudsman.

My advice would be try and obtain a copy of the P46 notification and see what information you provided your pension payer with. What section you completed is the crux of the matter.

Pennywise

BoGoF wrote: »

Pennywise, you give very good advice but I would have to take issue with your statement that it is ultimately the tribunals/courts decision as to whether it was "reasonable belief"

ESC is a concession against which there are actually no formal grounds of appeal if HMRC refuses to apply the concession.. There are other avenues such as the adjudicator/parliamentary ombudsman.

My advice would be try and obtain a copy of the P46 notification and see what information you provided your pension payer with. What section you completed is the crux of the matter.

Yes, all that is true, but my point still stands. Whilst the ESC appeal wouldn't be reviewed by the tribunals & courts, the HMRC officials must still abide by what those tribunals and courts have previously decided amounts to "reasonable belief" in other matters that are within their jurisdiction - it's a matter of legal precedent as to what constitutes "reasonable belief" which transends all HMRC dealings.

jem16

rosherville wrote: »

.If we surmise that the pension provider is correct when they say that they informed the Revenue in January 08 and have heard nothing since.

Surely someone has failed in their duty ?

You have to also consider that just because the pension provider say they sent in a P46 does not mean it actually happened. You also have no recollection of completing a P46 and whilst I realise it is 3 years ago, it may be that you never did complete it.

It is also your responsibility to ensure that HMRC are up to date with all of your income so you do have to accept some responsibility too.

As has already been said you need to contact the pension provider and get a copy of the P46 and get it in writing when it was sent to HMRC. Until you do that we are only going round in circles.