Sliding sash manufacturers which are decent?

sashman

leveller2911 wrote: »

Touting for business sashman?, why not just post your phone number or website.........;)

Leveller2911, sorry you are right, wasnt meant as a plug, just wanted to let person know I could help, I appologise but dont know how to edit it now.

planning_officer

Sashman, I do agree with many of your points above - and there are clearly good and bad planning officers, just like in any profession - and I respect your obvious desire to maintain and improve the design and appearance of the areas you work in. Most planning appeals are in fact lost though - I think the national average is around 70% of appeals dismissed and around 30% upheld. Also, most refusals that refer to materials are on historic buildings or in conservation areas, where things like UPVC may look completely out of place with the neighbouring historic buildings. It's good advice though to advise people to get everything in writing from their Local Planning Authority, and conservation officers in particular are usually very helpful as they share the same goals, i.e. to maintain the historic environment.

leveller2911

@ Shaunearle ,Nearly every post you written since joining is to promote the website you mention and its a Lts company so comapies will probably pay to be listed so its not impartial........Try looking at the site rules about spamming.....

spam reported

sashman

planning_officer wrote: »

Sashman, I do agree with many of your points above - and there are clearly good and bad planning officers, just like in any profession - and I respect your obvious desire to maintain and improve the design and appearance of the areas you work in. Most planning appeals are in fact lost though - I think the national average is around 70% of appeals dismissed and around 30% upheld. Also, most refusals that refer to materials are on historic buildings or in conservation areas, where things like UPVC may look completely out of place with the neighbouring historic buildings. It's good advice though to advise people to get everything in writing from their Local Planning Authority, and conservation officers in particular are usually very helpful as they share the same goals, i.e. to maintain the historic environment.

I hear that most appeals are won by planners thats why our stats are so strange, our installers have yet to lose an appeal! I know that sounds big headded, it probably is because we work damn hard to make a pretty window to match originals, this includes article 4 listeds.

However I am not advocating historic buildings be changed, these should be preserved, they are part of our nations heritage, period. That said too many planners use english heritage guideance of "timber only" on all applications, even those of modest mid terrance conservation areas.

So I agree, maintain the historic enviroment on historic buildings, but dont prevent homeowners improving their homes and conservation of energy, just because something is made of PVC......providing its has good design and looks "indistinguishable"

sashman

leveller2911

sashman wrote: »

However I am not advocating historic buildings be changed, these should be preserved, they are part of our nations heritage, period. That said too many planners use english heritage guideance of "timber only" on all applications, even those of modest mid terrance conservation areas.

So I agree, maintain the historic enviroment on historic buildings, but dont prevent homeowners improving their homes and conservation of energy, just because something is made of PVC......providing its has good design and looks "indistinguishable"

sashman

Hi Sashman, Interesting post and I agree with the sentiment but can PVC windows be made as true casement windows? or just stormproof?.I have seen some PVC sliding sash windows that look ok but the detailing is still a poor interpretation of timber.Things like the joints where they are mitred and welded rather than looking like a tradtional joint.Given that there are litterally dozens and dozens of different shaped horns on sliding sash windows can Upvc horns be made to the exact same dimensions in the same way that timber can?If a house is listed or in a Conservation area surely its important to keep the detailing Historically correct to keep it within the context,else its lost forever.

The downside to timber windows is that they need maintaining whereas Upvc don't.The downside to Upvc is that they won't last anywhere near as long as good Hardwood windows which can last for over 100 years.Both of coarse will need the glass units replacing during the lifespan of each....Many Upvc manufacturers will only guarantee against discolouration for 10 years which is pretty poor.





From the PVC windows I have seen they are far from "indistinguishable" from timber ones.
Would be grateful if you could PM me with some pix or a link would be good as I am genuinely interested .......

BlueC

I just want to ask the OP whether they have considered getting the existing sash windows repaired and restored? It is much cheaper and will remain genuine to the house.

It is a crying shame to rip out windows that have lasted 100 years just because we're constantly bombarded by double glazing propaganda. You can even fit internal secondary glazing if you're concerned about noise or heat insulation and this can be done relatively cheaply and in a way that looks in-keeping with a period property.

Also I'd agree with leveller2911 that I've never seen a PVC sash that looks "indistinguishable" from a timber one - in fact they are rather easy to spot even without close inspection.

sashman

leveller2911 wrote: »

Hi Sashman, Interesting post and I agree with the sentiment but can PVC windows be made as true casement windows or just stormproof?. .......

No. In all my time I am yet to see a true casement window (side opening) that matches a true cottage casement. Evolution produce a very good window that comes close in many aspects but its not perfect as a cottage window.

QUOTE=leveller2911;43271282]I have seen some PVC sliding sash windows that look ok but the detailing is still a poor interpretation of timber.Things like the joints where they are mitred and welded rather than looking like a traditional joint. ......[/QUOTE]PVC can have white grained foil, that looks just like painted timber. Butt joints can be done for the deeper bottom rail and the continuous horns, and some extrusions have the external staff bead incorporated, even the internal staff bead to suggest a pocket for the sashes.

leveller2911 wrote: »

Given that there are litterally dozens and dozens of different shaped horns on sliding sash windows can Upvc horns be made to the exact same dimensions in the same way that timber can? ......

Yes, but not commercially viable. Timber sash horns are different throughout the country, local carpenters (through the different periods) used horns as their signature. We have special cutting centre (CNC style) to produce any shape we like to match the existing, however the ends should be sealed and that requires an injection moulding, very expensive.

leveller2911 wrote: »

If a house is listed or in a Conservation area surely its important to keep the detailing Historically correct to keep it within the context,else its lost forever. ......

Yes, if its of historic interest, keep the windows, but most conservation areas are interested in the general appearance, the character of an estate, Essex design guide requires sash windows to maintain the street scene.

leveller2911 wrote: »

The downside to timber windows is that they need maintaining whereas Upvc don't.The downside to Upvc is that they won't last anywhere near as long as good Hardwood windows which can last for over 100 years. ......

PVC will last 30/35 years if looked after. My parents house has got sealed units that are 25 years old only two have blown. Sealed units in timber tend not to last as long as they are prone to standing in dampness.

leveller2911 wrote: »

Both of coarse will need the glass units replacing during the lifespan of each....Many Upvc manufacturers will only guarantee against discolouration for 10 years which is pretty poor. ......

Extruders wont guarantee longer than 10 years, unless they do manufactures wont go beyond their risk with the extruder, however I have never come across foiled products discolouring, that’s why our standard finish is wood white foil not shiny white plastic.

leveller2911 wrote: »

From the PVC windows I have seen they are far from "indistinguishable" from timber ones.
Would be grateful if you could PM me with some pix or a link would be good as I am genuinely interested ......

Not our quote, it came from an inspectorate appointed to settle a dispute between a council which objected to a PVC sash window and the home owner. The inspector found in favour of the homeowner saying in their report,

“The effect (of the xxxxxx sash window) is so convincing, that its difficult to differentiate between the two (PVCu and timber original) even at close quarters” and that,

”unlike many other PVCu imitations of sash that pay only superficial attention to traditional detailing, the mouldings, and glazing bars appear most authentic”.

“The proposal (xxxxxx PVCu sash window) would preserve or enhance the appearance of the Conservation area!”

I can provide a pdf to verify the above.

Moral of the story, if you have a good product, one that seriously trys to retain the character of the original, its well worth challenging outdated policies and perceptions.

Leveller will pm you separately.

sashman

Caz2000_2

Hi

I would really recommend getting your sash windows repaired and adding weatherproofing strips! I just paid £250 for fixing up one sash window box but that was a whole new sill (completely rotted), all the bottom of the box to be cut out and new bits scarfed in (rotted). He had to match moulding and was here from 9am to 6pm but you couldn't even see the joins when he had finished!

We restored the windows ourselves - it only cost some primer, paint and a bit of resin. We chose not to weatherstrip as the natural ventilation of a traditional sash is vital to allow a lime mortar house like ours to breath properly but several companies stock it - either staff bead and parting bead with it already inserted and even already primed or any decent sash restorer (or a normal joiner or even my OH) can rout out the original bead and add the strips. You can even get plastic parting bead that is fully weather stripped - saves painting (not suitable for listed windows but fine in a conservation area).

I live in a Grade II* listed building so have no choice to keep my existing sashes but the detailing on the originals is too good to lose - in contrast the modern replacment sash windows the previous owners put in (without consent) are poorly detailed with only the simplest machined moulding and horns when Georgian 6x6 sashes never had horns - they are only needed for "modern" glass (relatively speaking) because it is heavier and were added to windows when the panes started getting bigger ie 4x4.

In total if we had weatherstripped and got him to do the sashes themselves it would have been £300 - that has got to be less than a decent UPVC that would be approved by a conservation officer - if they didn't have any rot you can overhaul for £20 including weatherstrip! Some of ours are over 100yrs old and only need painting every 10 years or so if you keep them properly maintained (ours haven't been hence need for repairs).

My UPVC in my first house had sections going after 11 years and most of the handles no longer work and the hinges have gone on the small windows) and the one on my last house - well the people who had them put in must have got what they paid for "Economy Windows" alright I had them out around 6 times in the 4 years we lived there for sagging doors, leaking round the edges of the frames, blown doors - we sold just as the guarantee ran out and we'd have had to start paying for repairs!

Caz

P.S. We are lucky to have a lot of original shutters - excellent for keeping heat in (at night anyway).