DLR penalty notice

butterflied23

I was issued a DLR penalty fine on Saturday and was wondering if I had any grounds to appeal it? Hopefully these details will make some sense.

- I was travelling on Oyster PAYG, touched in at South Kensington and then took the circle line to Bank, and got on the DLR to Greenwich.
- I touched my card to the reader at Greenwich (and now it either didn't register or I didn't do it properly, but I'm thinking it was a fault as my friend who I was travelling with also got a fine for the same reason, and also touched out at Greenwich).
-As I went to get back on at Greenwich, I touched my card to the reader and it said 'see assistance' so I went to the top up machine to check if I had enough money on my card (although that would not have been the issue because I knew I had more than enough money) / if there was a problem. My card would not register at the top up machine, and neither would my friend's at this point. There was no one at Greenwich station to 'seek assistance' from and I was going to miss my last train home, so we got on, intending to get off at the next stop to see if someone could help us.
- We got ask for our tickets by an inspector, and started to explain our situation but he didn't listen, pulled us off the train and wrote us out a fine.

Now this was my first time using an oyster card so I asked him to explain the fine, which he couldn't do very well. He just took our ID and oyster cards, wrote down our details and told us to top up at the next station.

I know that for some it's only a £25 fine, but I'm a student and that's money I can't afford to lose. i was wondering if anyone had successfully appealed a DLR ticket before, and if I was in any position to be able to appeal mine.

Thanks :]

Also, I've been reading around and the prospect of going to court/being prosecuted is scaring the hell out of me. If I was issued a Penalty Fine Notice, can they still take me to court, even if I do pay within 21 days? and if I do pay it, can I still appeal afterwards?

wealdroam

butterflied23 wrote: »

I was issued a DLR penalty fine on Saturday and was wondering if I had any grounds to appeal it? Hopefully these details will make some sense.

- I was travelling on Oyster PAYG, touched in at South Kensington and then took the circle line to Bank, and got on the DLR to Greenwich.
- I touched my card to the reader at Greenwich (and now it either didn't register or I didn't do it properly, but I'm thinking it was a fault as my friend who I was travelling with also got a fine for the same reason, and also touched out at Greenwich).
-As I went to get back on at Greenwich, I touched my card to the reader and it said 'see assistance' so I went to the top up machine to check if I had enough money on my card (although that would not have been the issue because I knew I had more than enough money) / if there was a problem. My card would not register at the top up machine, and neither would my friend's at this point. There was no one at Greenwich station to 'seek assistance' from and I was going to miss my last train home, so we got on, intending to get off at the next stop to see if someone could help us.
- We got ask for our tickets by an inspector, and started to explain our situation but he didn't listen, pulled us off the train and wrote us out a fine.

Now this was my first time using an oyster card so I asked him to explain the fine, which he couldn't do very well. He just took our ID and oyster cards, wrote down our details and told us to top up at the next station.

I know that for some it's only a £25 fine, but I'm a student and that's money I can't afford to lose. i was wondering if anyone had successfully appealed a DLR ticket before, and if I was in any position to be able to appeal mine.

Thanks :]

Also, I've been reading around and the prospect of going to court/being prosecuted is scaring the hell out of me. If I was issued a Penalty Fine Notice, can they still take me to court, even if I do pay within 21 days? and if I do pay it, can I still appeal afterwards?

For Oyster problems, it might be worth looking at this unofficial Oyster website.

Livingthedream

butterflied23 wrote: »

I was issued a DLR penalty fine on Saturday and was wondering if I had any grounds to appeal it? Hopefully these details will make some sense.

You have every right to appeal a Penalty Fare, whether TfL uphold you appeal is another matter, either way you will lose nothing in trying.

Now just a few questions to ask?

butterflied23 wrote: »

-As I went to get back on at Greenwich, I touched my card to the reader and it said 'see assistance' so I went to the top up machine to check if I had enough money on my card (although that would not have been the issue because I knew I had more than enough money) / if there was a problem. My card would not register at the top up machine, and neither would my friend's at this point. There was no one at Greenwich station to 'seek assistance' from and I was going to miss my last train home, so we got on, intending to get off at the next stop to see if someone could help us.
- We got ask for our tickets by an inspector, and started to explain our situation but he didn't listen, pulled us off the train and wrote us out a fine.

Not been to Greenwich DLR, but has it got barriers and if it has how did you get through them on the way out but more importantly back onto the train on the return journey?

butterflied23 wrote: »

Now this was my first time using an oyster card so I asked him to explain the fine, which he couldn't do very well. He just took our ID and oyster cards, wrote down our details and told us to top up at the next station.

I hope he gave you your Oyster card back?

butterflied23 wrote: »

Also, I've been reading around and the prospect of going to court/being prosecuted is scaring the hell out of me. If I was issued a Penalty Fine Notice, can they still take me to court, even if I do pay within 21 days?

You'll will not end up in court if you pay it within the 21 days or you pay after your appeal to TFL fails, but if you then decide to hell with them and not pay the Penalty fare there's a good chance it will end up in court.

butterflied23 wrote: »

and if I do pay it, can I still appeal afterwards?

Yes you can pay and then appeal, if your appeal is upheld then you get your money back sometime, if you lose then it's just a letter saying unlucky.

butterflied23

Thank you for your response.

It's good to know I wont end up in court if I do pay it. I'm planning on paying and then appealing I think.

Greenwich doesn't have any barriers, just an oyster card station and automatic top up machines, which as I said, didn't work foe me or my friend :[

Stigy

butterflied23 wrote: »

Also, I've been reading around and the prospect of going to court/being prosecuted is scaring the hell out of me. If I was issued a Penalty Fine Notice, can they still take me to court, even if I do pay within 21 days? and if I do pay it, can I still appeal afterwards?

As Livingthedream said, you won't end up in court even if you appeal and lose. You'll only end up in Court if you ignore the Penalty Fare outright, or appeal, lose and then don't pay it. As you said, you intend to pay it and then appeal, which is probably the safest way of going about things so as to keep within the 21-day pay/appeal period.

If there was an issue with the Oyster Card readers, chances are it'll be logged somewhere in the system, and you'll be able to bottom it out.

dinoman88

Hello all,

This is the second time I've posted this (got deleted the first time..........)

anyway I've come across a website which may help you all out

GOOGLE 10 ways to avoid penalty fares

thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23731140-fare-dodgers.do

OUR 10 RULES FOR BEATING THE TICKET INSPECTOR
This advice is for National Rail services only. TfL has different rules with fewer safeguards. No legal liability is accepted.
1 Make a reasonable effort to buy a ticket before you get on.
It will weaken your case if you start from a station where there is a functioning ticket office or machine but make no attempt to use them. This does not, however, mean that you have to wait in a long queue and miss your train. See Rule Eight for the Government's guidance on what constitutes a reasonable waiting time.

2 If asked for a penalty fare, check that you actually have to pay one.
There are several non-penalty fare locations in London and the South- East - most importantly, Stansted airport. If your journey started at one of these locations, you cannot be charged a penalty fare. This probably applies even if you changed trains on to a penalty-fare service en route (see other box for full details).
There are other lines on which one operator has penalty fares and another does not (see box). If, for instance, you are asked for a penalty fare at the excess fares office at Euston and you have arrived on a train run by Virgin, not London Midland, you do not have to pay the penalty.
If you forget your season ticket, you do not have to pay a penalty fare. You may be issued with a "nil fare" penalty notice and asked to send in a photocopy of your season, or asked to buy a normal single ticket (which you can then get refunded at a ticket office on production of your season). You can only do this twice a year.
If you have a ticket between two places with multiple rail routes (eg London-Southend) but it is not valid for the route you are using, you cannot be charged a penalty fare - only the difference in price between the routes.
If you have a ticket for the right journey but it is not valid on the particular train you are using, this is a grey area. The Department for Transport's "Penalty Fares Policy" (clause 4.29) says you should not be charged a penalty fare, just the difference in price. But the National Rail conditions of carriage say holders of "some types of discounted tickets" can be charged a penalty. It is definitely worth arguing the point.

3 Check that the person asking for a penalty fare is an "authorised collector".
Under the Penalty Fares Rules 2002, sections 5 (2) and (3), only an "authorised collector ...individually authorised by or on behalf of the operator of that train" is allowed to collect penalty fares. Not all train guards and excess ticket office staff are authorised collectors. You have the right to ask them to produce the special identification document which proves that they are. (This also helps to return a measure of the "embarrassment factor", which some collectors use to get travellers to pay up.)
Check also whether the person asking you for a penalty has been authorised by the operator whose train you travelled on. At stations served by more than one train company, even where they both have penalty fares schemes, it may be that the people on the ticket barrier are authorised by one operator but not by the operator you used.

4 Even if they pass these tests, politely refuse to pay the penalty and simply pay the full single fare.
On the train or at the station, you have the absolute right to make only "a minimum payment that is equal to the full single fare which [you] would have had to pay for [your] journey if penalty fares had not applied." This is section 8 (2) of the Penalty Fares Rules 2002 - quote it if anyone tries to tell you different. (The full single fare means the fare without any railcard discounts, cheap offers etc.) Ignore any threats that may be made at this point if you refuse to pay the full sum - these are phoney and have no legal basis.

5 Never pay the penalty in the belief that you can recover it on appeal.
You are allowed to appeal against a penalty fare to one of two supposedly "independent" bodies. Most operators use the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service (IPFAS), others the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). But IPFAS is in fact owned by Southeastern Trains, is based at Southeastern's head office and all its staff are Southeastern employees. IAS was also until recently based in railway offices and its company secretary is a director of the company which runs the railways' ticketing system. In short, the appeal process is not independent of the rail operators, is not operated in your interests and is most unlikely to recover your money.

6 Give your correct name, address and journey details.
Once you have paid the single fare, the collector will then ask for your name and address so that they can send a demand for the rest to be paid within 21 days. They can check names and addresses while you wait with the electoral roll database. The only criminal offence in the whole penalty fares legislation is refusing to give a name and address, or giving a false one. So give the right details.

7 Once you have paid the minimum, they will hand you a form.
Check this carefully. It must show the authorised collector's name and identity, your correct details, the details of the journey you have taken and how much you have paid. Collectors are often careless. If any of these details are omitted or are wrong, and you can prove it, it is game over.

8 When the letter demanding the rest arrives, write back politely, again refusing to pay, and explaining why you were unable to buy a ticket before travelling.
This is where the most useful part of the Penalty Fares Rules comes in - Rule 7 (4), which states that a penalty fare must not be charged "if ... there were no facilities available for selling the appropriate ticket or other authority for the journey the person wanted to make".
The Rules themselves do not define what "no facilities available" means. But in separate guidance on penalty fares ("Penalty Fares Policy") issued by the Department for Transport, it is made quite clear, in clauses 4.2 and 4.11, that passengers must be given "sufficent opportunity" to buy a ticket and that regular queues over three minutes (off-peak) and five minutes (peak) breach the definition of what is "sufficient".
It is not clear whether this definition has any legal force - but if you quote it in your letter back to the train company, you are unlikely to be bothered again.
The Penalty Fares Policy also tells companies to "use discretion" towards the elderly, pregnant women, people who have enough money to buy a ticket "but not in the form needed to use the [ticket] machine" and "all passengers when the train service is severely disrupted". Once again, if you can truthfully quote any of these, you are unlikely to be bothered.

9 Remember: penalty fares are a civil, not a criminal-matter.
Train companies often scare people into paying up by threatening prosecution and a criminal record. However, the legislation establishing penalty fares, the Railways Act 1993, section 130, states that apart from failing to give your right name and address, "nothing in this section creates, or authorises the creation of any [criminal] offence". The Penalty Fares Regulations 1994 state that "the recovery of a penalty fare is a civil debt". So even if after reading your letter the company still decides it wants the money, it has to sue you - probably not worthwhile for such a small sum.
Railway companies sometimes threaten people with the main criminal law against fare-dodgers, the Regulation of Railways Act1889. But this says there has to be "intent to avoid payment". You could argue that you haven't intended to avoid payment because you have, in fact, paid the full single fare.

10 But don't abuse the system.
The safeguards provided in the law and the regulations are intended for people who want to pay the proper fare but occasionally fall foul of inadequate facilities. If you constantly board trains without buying a ticket, or if you lie to train company staff, this could be construed as intent to avoid payment and the chances of criminal prosecution will rise.

Stigy

dinoman88 wrote: »

Hello all,

This is the second time I've posted this (got deleted the first time..........)

anyway I've come across a website which may help you all out

GOOGLE 10 ways to avoid penalty fares

thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23731140-fare-dodgers.do

8 When the letter demanding the rest arrives, write back politely, again refusing to pay, and explaining why you were unable to buy a ticket before travelling.
This is where the most useful part of the Penalty Fares Rules comes in - Rule 7 (4), which states that a penalty fare must not be charged "if ... there were no facilities available for selling the appropriate ticket or other authority for the journey the person wanted to make".
The Rules themselves do not define what "no facilities available" means. But in separate guidance on penalty fares ("Penalty Fares Policy") issued by the Department for Transport, it is made quite clear, in clauses 4.2 and 4.11, that passengers must be given "sufficent opportunity" to buy a ticket and that regular queues over three minutes (off-peak) and five minutes (peak) breach the definition of what is "sufficient".
It is not clear whether this definition has any legal force - but if you quote it in your letter back to the train company, you are unlikely to be bothered again.
The Penalty Fares Policy also tells companies to "use discretion" towards the elderly, pregnant women, people who have enough money to buy a ticket "but not in the form needed to use the [ticket] machine" and "all passengers when the train service is severely disrupted". Once again, if you can truthfully quote any of these, you are unlikely to be bothered.

Ah, the Evening Standard's "10 ways to worm your way out of it" feature...

It's rare that a Penalty Fare is issued if there genuinely was no way in which a person could purchase a ticket at their station of origin, or on board a train, and staff can check the status of the machines and/or ticket offices etc. Same applies with service disruption etc. If a notice is issued when it shouldn't be, the customer WILL win an appeal.

dinoman88 wrote:

9 Remember: penalty fares are a civil, not a criminal-matter.
Train companies often scare people into paying up by threatening prosecution and a criminal record. However, the legislation establishing penalty fares, the Railways Act 1993, section 130, states that apart from failing to give your right name and address, "nothing in this section creates, or authorises the creation of any [criminal] offence". The Penalty Fares Regulations 1994 state that "the recovery of a penalty fare is a civil debt". So even if after reading your letter the company still decides it wants the money, it has to sue you - probably not worthwhile for such a small sum.
Railway companies sometimes threaten people with the main criminal law against fare-dodgers, the Regulation of Railways Act1889. But this says there has to be "intent to avoid payment". You could argue that you haven't intended to avoid payment because you have, in fact, paid the full single fare.

It is quite correct that Penalty Fares are a Civil matter, but what the feature fails to mention is that if a PF remains unpaid, they won't be using civil law and the County Courts to recover the debt, but the Magistrates' Court and criminal law. This is because the non-payment of the notice isn't being persued, but said notice is cancelled and the original offence of (usually) Railway Byelaw 18.1 is prosecuted instead. This is a criminal matter, and a Strict Liability offence, therefore no intention to avoid payment of the fare is required, is it is using the Regualtion of Railways Act 1889, as the Evening Standard states. (In other words, they were wrong to suggest that the Train company will try and prosecute you as a fare evader, because they more than likely woulodn't be able to using the RRA 1889, and will revert to Byelaws, which dont require intention to avoid payment to be proved).

dino wrote:

10 But don't abuse the system.
The safeguards provided in the law and the regulations are intended for people who want to pay the proper fare but occasionally fall foul of inadequate facilities. If you constantly board trains without buying a ticket, or if you lie to train company staff, this could be construed as intent to avoid payment and the chances of criminal prosecution will rise.

Quite correct, but they missed out "Or if you are late for your train and don't want to miss it"...

Livingthedream

dinoman88 wrote: »

GOOGLE 10 ways to avoid penalty fares

thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23731140-fare-dodgers.do

If your trying to invoke these points, then most probably you haven't got a valid ticket. So as you try and argue the point with the Revenue protection officer, he will put away his Penalty fare pad and reach for his MG11 pad then hand this to his prosecutions dept.

So a £25 penalty fare now becomes a more serious Bylaw 18.1 offence (Strict Liability of Failure to produce a valid ticket)

I read on another thread that you said 'use common sense and Research' well I will point to this forum for people to do their own research.

wealdroam

dinoman88 wrote: »

Hello all,

This is the second time I've posted this (got deleted the first time..........)
<snip>
<snip>

The other time you posted it is here.

It would not surprise me if it does get deleted though.
Posting great chunks of copyrighted material is frowned upon.

geordieracer

Forget all the bumf already posted. When you changed from the tube to DLR did you touch in on the reader @ Bank?

IIRC you have to as you are using 2 different forms of transport and it wont just count you touching out at Greenwich as having completed a journey as that journey is not possible to the reader @ Greenwich when it reads your card as it will just show 2 incomplete journeys.

Use the link given above.

Livingthedream

Geordieracer, not wanting to cause a flamewar:beer: which bumf? and which link?