Sharing my experience Lufthansa / Singapore : letter

richardw

bagand96 wrote: »

In situations like this the airlines do have a responsibility towards you. The EU regulations on passenger rights are EU 261/2004. The airline is responsible for "assistance", which in this case is meals and refreshments, as well as accommodation if an overnight stay is necessary. You are not due any compensation though, because the cause of the problems were genuinely beyond the airlines control.

But don't forget 'reasonable measures' as Articles 14 and 15

(14) As under the Montreal Convention, obligations on operating air carriers should be limited or excluded in cases where an event has been caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. Such circumstances may, in particular, occur in cases of political instability, meteorological conditions incompatible with the operation of the flight concerned, security risks, unexpected flight safety shortcomings and strikes that affect the operation of an operating air carrier.

(15) Extraordinary circumstances should be deemed to exist where the impact of an air traffic management decision in relation to a particular aircraft on a particular day gives rise to a long delay, an overnight delay, or the cancellation of one or more flights by that aircraft, even though all reasonable measures had been taken by the air carrier concerned to avoid the delays or cancellations.

bagand96

What reasonable measures were they supposed to take against meteorological conditions that prevented them landing at Frankfurt for safety reasons? They couldn't land at Frankfurt so they went elswhere and then transported the passengers to Frankfurt as they should have done (the original letters seem to have been removed by the OP so once again the whole story is not clear). Unfortunately for the OP this meant they missed a connection, which was operated by a different carrier. As sad as it may seem, the second carrier would not have held a plane waiting for a handful of passengers, it doesn't work like that.

There are options such as sitting on the ground in Marseilles until FRA was clear? However this may have meant the connection still being missed. FRA may have been fine when they left MRS, the weather situation may have developed while they were en-route? Situations like this are dynamic and the commander of the aircraft has to make safety decisions which are only focussed on getting the aircraft on the deck safely. For a recent case study of what happens when you don't, read up on the Manx2 crash at Cork.

I'm not sure what Lufthansa could have done to reasonably ensure the OP made their connection? The issue here is Lufthansa not providing hotel accommodation that they should have done under EU legislation. The OP needs to decide what he wants from them to make up for this - but it isn't going to result in hundreds of Euro's of compo, David Cameron or not!

Incapuppy

Cityboy wrote: »

Bagand/Malkie

The only posters to mention weather are you two.

The OP hasn't yet had the courtesy to return here to tell us of the reasons for the diversion/delay so to start second guessing the reason and then offering opinions on what the OP is/is not entitled to is irresponsible IMO.

They aren't second guessing, they are referring to information that the OP posted and later deleted.

bagand96

The OP hasn't yet had the courtesy to return here to tell us of the reasons for the diversion/delay so to start second guessing the reason and then offering opinions on what the OP is/is not entitled to is irresponsible IMO.

Incapuppy beat me to it, but the OP did post 2 or 3 more replies containing previous correspondence that gave this information. For some reason it disappeared as quick as it arrived, so like I said above the whole picture is once again unclear.

bagand96

If the OP has removed such references then it may be appropriate for both you and Malkie to similarly edit your posts. Posters new to this thread may otherwise infer that weather conditions = automatic defence under 261/2004 which is certainly not the case.

A poster came here and asked for advice. When they had provided the full details of the situation, I gave advice based on what was posted.

I have neither the time or inclination to re-visit all threads I post on to check whether my replies are still relevant based on how any previous posters may have edited their own posts.

The OP on this thread has not revisited, and for some reason after posting the full details has once again removed them. Perhaps the responses were not quite what they wanted to hear.

bagand96

Cityboy wrote: »

I haven't asked you to redact information on all threads just this one which you clearly have revisited...

Fair point. But like I said, I took time to post advice, if the OP wants to remove info then thats up to them.

Don't see this post going anywhere now unless the OP adds anything further. Or maybe David Cameron is on the case and its gone above us here on MSE:beer:

the_edventure

Thanks a lot to those who have tried to help with suggestions etc, no thanks to those are making sarcastic comments.. it doesn't really help.

@all - I am a stay at home papa, with a million things on my plate including a new-born, a two year-old, private design work and a new house to design, so forgive me if i don't post stuff every day + I don't get e-mails letting me know that someone's replied to my post (how do i adjust that?).

@cityboy - it's not that i haven't had the courtesy, it's because i've been (as i've explained) very very busy.

@all - to be clear; I don't contest that an airline is responsible for the weather (i'm not that much of a Daily Mail reader, please)... I just find it disgusting that an airline can lie to nigh-on 300 travellers about hotel accommodation, and be proved that they were lying and then make no excuse and no offer regarding that. Isn't it illegal for a company to lie like that?! I guess they could make up any story to cover their asses, but i clearly have proof, and my conclusion still stands that they were lying in order not to pay 300x hotel room bills. [nb: bangand96 - you are right; that's the crux of the matter; i'm not dumb enough to blame them for the missed connections..and i have zero interest in making that point.)

@all - it's weird; i didn't remove any letters; i will post them again if i have time, but bagand96, your summary of the situ is bang-on.

the_edventure

First reply from Lufthansa:
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Dear Mr. & Mrs. Hoskin,

Thank you for your letter dated 1st August 2010, your continued correspondence and for your patience in awaiting our response.

Please accept our apologies for the inconvenience caused due to the diversion of flight LH 4355 on 14th July 2010 and for the delay of your connecting flight SQ 2089. As you may be aware, your outbound flight was diverted due to unforeseen adverse weather conditions in Frankfurt.

It is with great regret we learned of your dissatisfaction with the service you received on that day. We are aware that when any irregularity occurs, customer service and communication are very important; however, we would ask for your understanding that in certain situations, it can often be very difficult to predict the extent of the delay. Please accept our apologies if your expectations were not met on this occasion.

In the event of a departure delay of over 2 hours, we are required to offer our passengers refreshments, in relation to the flight distance and waiting time. As stated in your letter; you were provided with a refreshment voucher following your flight irregularity. We are sorry to learn that the assistance provided did not meet with your expectations. We would also like to apologise if you were not provided with hotel accommodation. Unfortunately all hotels in the local area were fully booked following the Airport closure.

As a goodwill gesture; we would like to offer you an online gift voucher for Eur 50. Your voucher code is: xxxxxxxxxxxxx. This voucher can only be redeemed at xxxxxxxxx. Experiential, newspaper / magazine, financial and local awards are excluded from this special offer, as are all products with reduced prices. A cash refund is not possible. This code is valid until July 31, 2012. Should your purchase have a lower value that the value of your code, it is not possible to refund the remaining amount. Should your purchase have a higher value than the value of your code, you may pay the difference.

Again, we would like to apologise for any stress and inconvenience this may have caused you and your family. We look forward to welcoming you both on board a Lufthansa flight again soon and assure you that we will do our utmost to make sure that your future flights with us proceed as smoothly as possible.

Yours sincerely,
Customer Feedback Europe
Lufthansa German Airlines

the_edventure

first response from SA:
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Dear Mr Hoskin,

We have noted your feedback, send to us on 21 Oct 2010. We apologize for the delay in reply as we have to check with our counterparts at Lufthansa.

We are sorry to hear of your unpleasant experience during your flight between Marseille to Frankfurt, code-shared on a Lufthansa operated flight.
The general guidelines in the airlines industry is that the airline who handles the passenger is responsible for the passage and connection to the next airline.

We have checked with Lufthansa and they mentioned that there will be no compensation for your case. For further details, we would appreciate it if you could contact Lufthansa directly.

Yours sincerely,

Customer Service Officer
Singapore Airlines, Paris, France.

the_edventure

First letter from me to Lufthansa:
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Dear Sir / Madam

We have just returned from our summer holiday to Singapore and Thailand and are writing to inform you of the sub-standard service that we received from your company in Europe.

Our flight was from Marseille to Singapore via Frankfurt. Due to bad weather conditions, Frankfurt was closed for a few hours, which resulted in our flight being diverted to the nearest airport, and then again diverted to a second nearest airport (another 1 hour of flight). Just before we landed we were informed that we would land and then take a coach transfer back to Frankfurt (with no explanation of whether our connecting flights would be held for us or what exactly the plan was).

When we arrived in this second diversion airport before going back to Frankfurt, there was zero information - we had to guess about the coaches to get on. There was no Lufthansa rep, no information, nothing. We had no idea if we were going to catch our flights, or sleep in a hotel or the airport floor. There were many families with small children on the plane, including us.

When we arrived at Frankfurt airport, again there was nobody around to let us all know (3 coaches full of passengers) where, what, why, when, who, whether, etc. We had to group up together as a team and harass the Lufthansa staff that we could find to get some answers. One manager seemed to run away from any interaction, and then the lady who dealt with us (a short blonde lady) was reasonably helpful but one could tell that her systems and networks what not helpful enough for her to do her job.

We were told different stories as to:

a) who was responsible for getting us out of the mess (Lufthansa or Singapore Airlines)
b) whether we could use a room (like a lounge) to sleep in (this is at around 1am with no-one having any sleep)
c) whether any hotels had any space – one lady said nowhere had any rooms, one lady said only the chains were full.
d) what time the booking desks would open, and where they were – we were told 5:30, then 6, then 7, then 07:30, and we were told three different locations.
e) whether we'd be able to get a seat on the next plane to our final destination.

We finally managed to get on the waiting list for the first flight out of FRA to SIN which was 12:00 the next day. We received a 30 euro voucher for food and drink in the airport, however there was nowhere for us or our baby to sleep in the airport. The staff in coffee shops would not wash our baby's milk bottles.

When we got to the ticket desk we were told by the first person that it was Singapore Airlines' responsibility to get us on the next flight, and only with some serious arguing and explaining that it was the Lufthansa AND Singapore Airlines' employees that both told us to book via the Lufthansa desk, that we got into the booking system for our flight.

All of this is nothing to compare with another couple that we met in Singapore who told us that they were diverted from FRA to Leipzig and took a journey of 50hrs with Lufthansa and SA (with a tiny baby). They said they would never ever fly Lufthansa again, and we totally understand their emotion. This all added up to a hellish journey that meant that we arrived with 5hrs until the wedding, so no sleep before best man at my best friend's wedding.

I expect a swift reply from you and some sort of compensation for this delay to our journey. In the end we were delayed by around 12 hours, with no accommodation offered and one 30€ food and drink voucher for 2 adults and an infant. We expect to be explained our rights as to what compensation we will be afforded.

We will be looking into and contacting those hotels around the airport that we were told were full in order to check that the story we were told (‘they are all full’) was true or a tactic to avoid paying the hotel costs of a few hundred customers.

Regards,
Mr and Mrs Hoskin
The_edventure@yahoo.co.uk