Economical Electric Heating Please Help

franwithaplan

Hello Heating Fraternity, I need to install economical and efficient heating in my rented house which comprises two large rooms and a hallway downstairs, and upstairs three bedrooms, a bathroom, a separate toilet, and landing. The windows are metal, single glazed, and we have cavity walls though I am not certain whether they have been insulated. The ground floor has solid floors, which I believe are insulated. And the loft has been recently insulated, to current standards.
We have no gas and are not in a position to install either LPG or heating oil or anything similar, because we rent, but we have been here nearly five years and need to do something, as we intend staying for the long term. We have an open fire which we use all winter long, requiring logs, kindling and coal, which can cost a small fortune. This year we have kept the house warm by using a combination of three oil filled radiators, two low wattage tubular heaters for toilet and spare room, a down flow fan heater for the bathroom (which is now broken), a wall mounted convector heater, and the open fire.
The radiators are all on castors, with thermostatic controls and timers and have three wattage settings...
I am a stay at home Mum and home educate my 12 year old son, so need the house to be heated throughout the day.
I am currently paying the electricity company £163.00 a month plus a variable amount for the coal, wood and kindling.
...so now I need assistance; I had a visit from a WIBO engineer who succeeded in making me choke , when he told me how much it would cost to install 5 heaters (£10,600) which prompted me to start searching the web for cheaper solutions.
...so here I am! I have read quite a lot of the posts on MSE and am in agreement that one needn’t spend vast amounts of money on the heaters themselves. What I need to know, is how to heat my rooms, because as I say I am at home all day, and my husband works 12 hour shifts, (days and nights).
The living room is the largest room at 5.6m long by 4.3m wide and the ceiling height is 2.25m, and we lit a fire in the grate nearly every day for the entire winter, which for the most part warms the room up quite well, although it consumes copious amounts of wood.
If I set the radiator in the bedroom to come on at 4.45 am it would take the chill of the room in time for my husband getting up at 5 am, but I can’t then also set it for 8 am so it’s warm for when I wake up (at least I don’t think so), although heating the bedroom specifically for my husband is probably a moot point as he is hardly in there, as his first point of call is the toilet and bathroom, via the landing... so technically we need to heat three rooms/areas, for the space of an hour, to a comfortable warmth. He will then use both the downstairs rooms, living room and kitchen before leaving for work around 630am, so between 5am and 630am we need some type of heat working in the house. Then I will get up around 8 am, and my son an hour later, and unless we have scheduled meetings, we will be indoors all day, and just need the house, mostly the living room and the kitchen to be warm...too much information? It’s hard to know what to say as I know anyone reading this might not want to give all their expertise away for free, but on the other hand I do not want to be fobbed off with blurb from the likes of WIBO, and/or others I have been hearing about, and conversely, the info you get on the shop floor of say B&Q is a bit hit and miss.
If you got this far, I would be really grateful for suggestions and solutions to help keep the heating bills down...thanks Fran

Cardew

Welcome to the forum.

Apart from getting an Air Source Heat Pump, I am afraid to say you have the most efficient electrical heating it is possible to buy - as it is 100% efficient! Indeed it has exactly the same efficiency(100%) as those Wibo heaters at the unbelievable price of £10,200 for 5 radiators and they will produce no more heat for the same running costs as your present set-up.

Buying a couple of £10 fan heaters will warm the house quicker, but will be no cheaper to run. An infra-red heater which are low powered and hence cheaper to run, has the advantage that it directs heat toward you - but doesn't warm the room.

The most effective way to reduce running costs is insulation, insulation and then more insulation. You can get all sorts of grants(or the owner can) Cavity insulation is a must, simple secondary double glazing, heavy curtains etc.

Also make sure you are on the cheapest internet tariff - electricity prices can vary a great deal from company to company.

spinningsheep

From what I have read on here on numerous threads on the subject and from personal experience of electric space heating, there is no more efficient way of electrical heating as cardew says, as there is no loss of efficiency ie 2kw of electricity consumed = 2kw of heat provided. I found that an oil filled radiator was better for longer periods of heat, background heat if you like, and the radiators stayed hotter for longer, and the heating element only kicked on every now and then, much the same as a gas boiler heating water filled radiators. They take a while to actually warm up though, so we found that it was best to keep them on low when we went out and turn them back up on return, whern it was very cold that is. The cheap £10 2kw fan heater is great for "instant" heat on demand like first thing in the morning or as a boost on a really cold day when the oil filled radiator is still warming up. Electric heating is approx 3 times the cost of mains gas per kwh, so however you choose to heat your home you will pay more. I have installed an insert stove in my open fireplace instead of my open fire, it was £300 well spent as it can be up to 80% efficient instead of wasting heat up the chimney. may at least bring down your solid fuel costs. Worth considering a calor gas heater too, although these can consume massive amounts of gas and you may find a bottle may not last long, they also put out huge amounts of condensation, so not ideal.

franwithaplan

Hi there Cardew, thanks for your info, which is pretty much what I expected as I have read quite a lot of your posts. In some ways nice to know that following my instincts proved to be pretty much the right thing to do... I just wish there was some way to spend a whole lot less...anyway nice to meet you; I feel as if I know you! lol.
Thanks also to SpinningSheep.
So what you're both saying is continue as I am - using timer switches, and being prepared to monitor daily what needs tweaking - but be prepared to install secondary glazing, and cavity wall insulation...Well, at least it will be cheaper than WIBO radiators!

Thanks again

Fran

bhbh

Cardew, very much appreciate your various comments and nouse about electric heating radiators but can I clarify a point please? Yes, 1kw/hr of heat costs the same whichever electrical aplicance draws it. But don't these modern storage rads APPLY the heat differently thus producing more efficiency e.g. the retention of heat by storage materia (blocks, water, shaving foam ...whatever..) maintains the circular convective flow longer thus mixing the air producing more evenly spread heat. Panel radiators which lose heat quickly generate warm ceilings and cooler floors..the thermostat then "thinks" the room needs more heat when in fact mixing the warmer higher air into the lower half of the room would maintain temperature a lttle longer and not need another switch-on so soon?

AM just struggling to understand HOW these modern rads might acually work! Have 3 extension rooms to heat.
THanks
BH

grahamc2003

bhbh wrote: »

Cardew, very much appreciate your various comments and nouse about electric heating radiators but can I clarify a point please? Yes, 1kw/hr of heat costs the same whichever electrical aplicance draws it. But don't these modern storage rads APPLY the heat differently thus producing more efficiency e.g. the retention of heat by storage materia (blocks, water, shaving foam ...whatever..) maintains the circular convective flow longer thus mixing the air producing more evenly spread heat. Panel radiators which lose heat quickly generate warm ceilings and cooler floors..the thermostat then "thinks" the room needs more heat when in fact mixing the warmer higher air into the lower half of the room would maintain temperature a lttle longer and not need another switch-on so soon?

AM just struggling to understand HOW these modern rads might acually work! Have 3 extension rooms to heat.
THanks
BH

You'll struggle for a very long time to understad how these 'special' rads produce more heat than any other electrical device .... because they don't. All any electric heater can do is delay the heat release at a differnet rate, and divide the heat between conduction, covection or radiation in different proportions. But the amount of heating is always the same, whatever shaped fins they may have on the back, or whatever material the core is filled with. The units - kwh - are units of energy, which always ends up as heat, which is also measured in kwh. So use 2kwh of energy, you'll get 2kwh of heat - the rest is just personal preference, some like 99% radiative instant heaters, since they give a nice glow and heat you instead of the air directly, others like forced instant convective heating (fan heaters) which coduct the heat into the air which then warms you by convection, others still like heaters on cheaper tariffs which strore much of the heat and release it by variable amounts of radiation and convection several hours later. Others like to pay a few grand for bog standard convetive and radiative heaters which produce exactly the same amount of heat, yet have strange fins and strange material inside for no reason except to rip people off.

Cardew

bhbh wrote: »

Cardew, very much appreciate your various comments and nouse about electric heating radiators but can I clarify a point please? Yes, 1kw/hr of heat costs the same whichever electrical aplicance draws it. But don't these modern storage rads APPLY the heat differently thus producing more efficiency e.g. the retention of heat by storage materia (blocks, water, shaving foam ...whatever..) maintains the circular convective flow longer thus mixing the air producing more evenly spread heat. Panel radiators which lose heat quickly generate warm ceilings and cooler floors..the thermostat then "thinks" the room needs more heat when in fact mixing the warmer higher air into the lower half of the room would maintain temperature a lttle longer and not need another switch-on so soon?

AM just struggling to understand HOW these modern rads might acually work! Have 3 extension rooms to heat.
THanks
BH

Heat produced can be measured several ways Calories, BTU, Joules etc.

Electrical heating is 100% efficient, so one unit of electricity(1 kWh) will produce the same amount of heat no matter what electrical heater is used.

If a heater retains heat, then it takes longer to give out that heat.

Storage heaters are basically cabinets filled with a load of bricks with electrical heating elements, and are very heavy(can be in excess of 100kg).

These storage heaters take a long while for the electrical energy to heat the bricks, and they are slow to release that heat; but the important point is that the 'heat' they release is exactly the same as any other heater would release(for the same electrical input)

The difference is in how quickly the various heaters 'release' heat. A £10 fan heater produces virtually 'instant' heat, but when switched off it retains no heat.

Heaters like granny's old 1/2/3 bar fire are the same.

Radiators filled with various substances take longer to produce heat, but retain heat after they are switched off. The denser the material in the radiator the longer it takes to produce heat, but the longer it retains heat.

Now we come to the claims of these firms that market £30 radiators for a cost of many hundreds of pounds. They come out with the same 'mumbo jumbo' as you have included in your quote, and hope that the gullible will swallow it whole.

If we take a £30 oil filled radiator, as explained above it will produce EXACTLY the same amount of heat as any of these radiators filled with any substance known to man.

Why cannot the oil filled rad "maintain the circular convective flow longer thus mixing the air producing more evenly spread heat."?
Certainly nothing would be more efficient in "maintaining the circular convective flow longer thus mixing the air producing more evenly spread heat" than a £10 fan heater.

It is, I am afraid, complete B.S. to pretend that you can make a material difference to the cost of warming a room to the same temperature. In fact if you carefully read what you have posted, does it make any definate claim to cheaper running costs? or just imply they are cheaper?

The Laws of Thermodynamics cannot be changed by some rubbish spouted by these firms.

Do you not think that if these claims had any merit they wouldn't be championed by WHICH, the Energy Saving Trust and indeed the Government.

Pincher

If you want "directed" heat, the cheapest is an electric blanket.

Alternatively, keep swapping microwavable gel packs.

Resonant Frequency
_________________

What we need is a material (silicone gel?) that will heat up when you fire radio waves at it, but the human body is unaffected.
Let's call it WarmTex.

Despite not having done any research, and have no idea how to make it, I hereby copyright WarmTex and TexWarm which respectively are:

WarmTex : material that warms up by wireless energy

TexWarm: the transmitter that sends the non-lethal radio waves.

I will then sell WarmTex lining to clothing manufacturers, and license electric heater manufacturers.

bhbh

To heat or not to heat
"It is, I am afraid, complete B.S. to pretend that you can make a material difference to the cost of warming a room to the same temperature. In fact if you carefully read what you have posted, does it make any definate claim to cheaper running costs? or just imply they are cheaper? "

Well, yes, I believe that the logic carries savings :-). Based on HOW the heat is "warming a room". Doesn't mixing the air more evenly result in a re-heat occurring later? Reasoning: With a thermostat set for say 20c and using the 2-layer model of poorly mixed air i.e. warm ceiling at 22c & cooler floor at 18c, the lower 18c air would trigger the thermostat whereas more evenly mixed air at 20c would not.

However!! Am just checking/sharing rationale with others for the purpose of better understanding.

IMHO you are spot on with the killer point. To date none of the blighters will state categorically that cost savings can be demonstrated in a controlled and comparative situation. I've asked them! So even if air mixing has merits it would seem not to produce sufficient "material difference", as you say, to appear in the blurbs.

This thread has stopped me from purchasing these "wonder-rads" this time around and I am grateful to all who chip in.

Am going for plain, non-filled, plug-in, Dimplex convectors, or equivalent according to sizes available, with built-in 24hr timer. About £95 each. Whacking an E10 meter in to gtee me a hol in the sun this year!

Anybody know better please yell now! Am all ears!
THanks
BH

Cardew

bhbh wrote: »

Well, yes, I believe that the logic carries savings :-). Based on HOW the heat is "warming a room". Doesn't mixing the air more evenly result in a re-heat occurring later? Reasoning: With a thermostat set for say 20c and using the 2-layer model of poorly mixed air i.e. warm ceiling at 22c & cooler floor at 18c, the lower 18c air would trigger the thermostat whereas more evenly mixed air at 20c would not.

In any room there are 'convection currents' that mix the air.

However even if this 'layers of air at different temperature' argument has merit, why would a heater filled with gel, clay, or any other magic substance be better than a radiator filled with oil?

Also as stated above, what could be better at mixing air than a £10 fan heater.

HappyMJ

bhbh wrote: »

Am going for plain, non-filled, plug-in, Dimplex convectors, or equivalent according to sizes available, with built-in 24hr timer. About £95 each. Whacking an E10 meter in to gtee me a hol in the sun this year!

Anybody know better please yell now! Am all ears!
THanks
BH

If you are going to use heating in the day time then the E10 meter will cost you more than a standard 24 hour tariff.

Why £95 that's a lot... You don't need a 24hr timer you can manually turn it off and on. Convector heaters heat the room very quickly. All it needs is a thermostat.

Try these £8.99 http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/4152868/c_1/1|category_root|Home+and+furniture|14417894/c_2/2|14417894|Heaters+and+radiators|14417957/c_3/3|cat_14417957|Convector+heaters|14417964.htm