My student daughter cannot get a student account!

Derivative

It's not difficult for the average student if they sort themselves out.

Your argument is like saying that a single bloke on £100,000 finds it 'difficult' to survive since currently he spends all of it on tosh.

I spend money on things. I just don't set a hard budget of "£20 this week for going out" because it's not that rigid. Neither do I decide to buy things before I know if I can afford them.

You keep trotting out the 'tight parents' line. I think you're mistaking what I mean by this. I'm essentially saying if your parents charge you full rent outside term time that can be a problem. For most on sub £15k household income, I don't see that being a problem as in rented accommodation subletting will be frowned upon anyway.

Furthermore I'm not advocating any lifestyle, but I'm certainly not judging it either. As I continually remind you - the average student your so happy to talk on behalf of will spend far more time in bars then museums - and as such any average spending should include it - despite the fact you seemingly think that these people are excessive if they buy clothes, mobiles, go drinking or whatever.

OP if you daughter is the type to spend time in bars, with her mobile in some new clothes - like i say i recommend a job. If she's off to museums and out on walks - which I'll add that there is also nothing wrong with - and her budget still isn't working out then i still recommend a job

I don't think going out is excessive. I think going into your overdraft to do it is excessive.
And I too recommend a job, but it should be doable to temp outside term time and not have additional stress.

notafan

EdgEy wrote: »

It's not difficult for the average student if they sort themselves out.

Your argument is like saying that a single bloke on £100,000 finds it 'difficult' to survive since currently he spends all of it on tosh.

I spend money on things. I just don't set a hard budget of "£20 this week for going out" because it's not that rigid. Neither do I decide to buy things before I know if I can afford them.

You keep trotting out the 'tight parents' line. I think you're mistaking what I mean by this. I'm essentially saying if your parents charge you full rent outside term time that can be a problem. For most on sub £15k household income, I don't see that being a problem as in rented accommodation subletting will be frowned upon anyway.



I don't think going out is excessive. I think going into your overdraft to do it is excessive.
And I too recommend a job, but it should be doable to temp outside term time and not have additional stress.

Its nothing like someone earning 100,000 a year. Were talking 6k.

Where I take issue is your sweeping statements which included the tight parents and your attitude and views of the typical student despite not really being typical yourself - nothing wrong with not being typical but your not representative.

I never mentioned going into an overdraft to do it either. In fact having had discussion with you in the past and knowing your opinion 'debt is wrong' I didn't include any payments to any debt or the funding of any overdraft (although again I'm certain the vast majority will use such funds throughout time at uni)

I highly doubt paying your mum or dad housekeeping/board whilst back at home would be viewed by anyone as sub letting but that's another ball game...

There is no issue working time term either - there are vast amounts of down time and what student job is stressful?

Derivative

notafan wrote: »

Its nothing like someone earning 100,000 a year. Were talking 6k.

It is exactly the same, in the metaphorical sense of spending more than you have. I make the case that 6k is all you need to live and study, which is what student loans are for.

I highly doubt paying your mum or dad housekeeping/board whilst back at home would be viewed by anyone as sub letting but that's another ball game...

No issue with board, as I said earlier with making up CB payments. What I mean is that if your parents charge you the full rent that a lodger would pay, for example, you'd be in trouble. They can't make a case for opportunity cost as a lodger staying would be illegal. This is what I mean by tight parents. Please do not misconstrue this as me wanting people to continue to live off bank of M&D.

There is no issue working time term either - there are vast amounts of down time and what student job is stressful?

Depends on the degree.

I don't understand why you choose to continue this. We're debating over definitions of what is 'average' and whatnot. I have shown you that £6400 is enough to get by on and have a fair bit spare. No it's not going to give you the high life, that's not the point.

notafan

EdgEy wrote: »

It is exactly the same, in the metaphorical sense of spending more than you have. I make the case that 6k is all you need to live and study, which is what student loans are for.

No issue with board, as I said earlier with making up CB payments. What I mean is that if your parents charge you the full rent that a lodger would pay, for example, you'd be in trouble. They can't make a case for opportunity cost as a lodger staying would be illegal. This is what I mean by tight parents. Please do not misconstrue this as me wanting people to continue to live off bank of M&D.

Depends on the degree.

I don't understand why you choose to continue this. We're debating over definitions of what is 'average' and whatnot. I have shown you that £6400 is enough to get by on and have a fair bit spare. No it's not going to give you the high life, that's not the point.

All you've shown is a set of selective figures which add up to what you say allows you to get by. You then use those figures to talk about students as a collective group and say its not difficult to live off that figure. You then make comparisons with what you spend your money on and state things like anything else is living beyond means or similar.

Each and every time you never recognise that your figures miss out a great deal of what those students you talk on behalf of do spend money on. You can not compare a student who pays all the necessary bills goes for the odd pint in the union, buys the odd new pair of jeans and tops up their mobile phone to someone earning 100,000 a year and being frivolous with it.

The more you neglect the things that are part and parcel of the lives of this big group of students who have different spending patterns to you the more silly you look when you talk about how easy it is for them to get by based on your budgeting. The more you discard items as not applying to your circumstances to to assert you point is the more naive you look - not every student is living like you or is wrong not to do so, not will their figures for the essentials be the same as yours.

I'm not debating with you what average is at all - I've given you places you can go find information on average spending which is different to yours. Based upon your figures you've insisted its easy to live on 6k, and when challenged you then make silly comparisons with a budget 6 times that. You've then also insinuated that any spending above this basic 6k level your finding so easy to live within is excessive or you've made silly comments about the not caring for the ''getting smashed at a weekend lifestyle''.

Quite frankly you are probably the first student I've heard from who believes its so easy to live on that amount of money. From what you've said about the money you get and the money spend its clear that you don't fully appreciate the full realistic costs of a student at University and what there finances realistically cover.

Either way i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I genuinely wish you good luck at Uni, and hope you continue to find it as easy with money. I hope you get through the time on the funding you get with enough to spend on what you need.

I do however think you'll have one of the most difficult financial times whilst your there. I also think at some point over your period of time in higher ed there will come a time when you need to find extra cash from somewhere for the times that tiny 6k budget wont cut it. Your at a point now where you are at the beginning of looking after all financial liabilities off your own back being responsible for major outgoings for the first time. With the best will and good intentions in the world at some point that tiny 6k budget will come back and bite you and will show you just how tough it can be and i reckon come the end of you studying your opinion will have changed.

Derivative

We're arguing the toss over different questions. We can't disagree because we're not debating the same topic.

I consider basic living costs a roof over my head, food to eat, and clothes when the old ones wear out.

You consider in addition to these, going out to the pub, maybe a weekend holiday, etcetera.

Yes, most students choose to do them, just as most people choose to not live on rice and beans. Nothing wrong with that at all.

The issue is that they present an obstacle to living on a shoestring budget.

I think we also have different definitions of the word easy. I would consider 'hard' having to haggle on the rent, charge a laptop in the library, raid bins for leftovers. Going to the pub a bit less... well, my belly will thank me for it.

My comment about the £100k man still stands. The issue is fundamentally the same. A student with £500 left over after bills spending £600 on clothes is in the same situation as a professional with £50000 left over after bills spending £60000 on a new Merc.

"The average student could live on a £6400 budget" and "The average student does live on a £6400 budget" are different statements. I'm arguing for the first, you seem to be going against the second.

notafan

EdgEy wrote: »

'Right' and 'wrong' don't really come into it here. We're arguing the toss over different questions.

I consider basic living costs a roof over my head, food to eat, and clothes when the old ones wear out.

You consider in addition to these, going out to the pub, maybe a weekend holiday, etcetera.

Yes, most students choose to do them, just as most people choose to not live on rice and beans. Nothing wrong with that at all.

The issue is that they present an obstacle to living on a shoestring budget.

I think we also have different definitions of the word easy. I would consider 'hard' having to haggle on the rent, charge a laptop in the library, raid bins for leftovers. Going to the pub a bit less... well, my belly will thank me for it.

My comment about the £100k man still stands. The issue is fundamentally the same. A student with £500 left over after bills spending £600 on clothes is in the same situation as a professional with £50000 left over after bills spending £60000 on a new Merc.

I've not given my opinion of what i consider essential - you've made yet another assumption. What i've said is your costs arent reflective of the group you speak for. The costs include the basics.

Its not the same, as someone with a 100k budget would likely be able to cut back drastically on their basic costs. The person on 100k would have the option to find the essentials at the same price the person with a 6k budget. The person with 6k would have major issues as we've been through cutting back even further.

If you are eating out of bins i'd consider that poverty or in serious difficulty not hard. I thought your electric was covered in those hall costs - no need to charge in the library! I think its fairly easy to cut back on going to the pub or haggling on rent. But hey that aint the issue either.

Derivative

Get me above £6400 for basics.

Use the national average for rent and assume our student has a decent amount of financial education.

I can't do it. I really can't.
I can go around and find daft high rents all day, but the only place I get stuck is London. And there, Student Finance conveniently raise the funding. Probably because they are actually in the business of knowing how much student living costs.

I can only assume you're seeing something I'm not. From where I sit, rent, food, bills, books, travel sit far enough under £6400 that you can work out a deal with the 'rents.

notafan

EdgEy wrote: »

Get me above £6400 for basics.

Use the national average for rent and assume our student has a decent amount of financial education.

I can't do it. I really can't.
I can go around and find daft high rents all day, but the only place I get stuck is London. And there, Student Finance conveniently raise the funding. Probably because they are actually in the business of knowing how much student living costs.

I can only assume you're seeing something I'm not. From where I sit, rent, food, bills, books, travel sit far enough under £6400 that you can work out a deal with the 'rents.

Well unlike you clearly!

And you exactly right, as your in halls and as I think you mentioned your first year I'm seeing it with the benefit of experience over the time i already spent doing it.

And of course lets give credit to organisations that give out 'London Weightings' because they'll all be very accurate and representative and actually cover the higher costs involved in living in the London area. Incidentally then you'd imagine all organisations would pay the same amount of London Weighting wouldn't you... except they don't. Hmmmm

Its not about getting you above the basics, although it's easily done (i could find you some expensive halls but that isnt the point). It's about getting you to acknowledge all the costs involved. You will not spend 3 years of your life only spending money on the basics and there is nothing left from you figures - except that £20ish quid which left room for nothing else even the costs you felt were 'optional'

Derivative

notafan wrote: »

Well unlike you clearly!

And you exactly right, as your in halls and as I think you mentioned your first year I'm seeing it with the benefit of experience over the time i already spent doing it.

And of course lets give credit to organisations that give out 'London Weightings' because they'll all be very accurate and representative and actually cover the higher costs involved in living in the London area. Incidentally then you'd imagine all organisations would pay the same amount of London Weighting wouldn't you... except they don't. Hmmmm

So basically, you're not going to give me the numbers, because presumably you've realised they fit nicely into the box.
Nice one.

Guess I'll have to find out for myself when suddenly I end up paying far more than £120/week (my current rent+bills). Because £120 is lower than the 'average' of £60 (yes, I understand bills aren't included here)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2007/mar/07/studentfinance.studenthousing

Look, I understand that £20pw is not a lot of disposable to live on. Maybe I will want a bit more and go into the overdraft or get a part time job. To be honest I plan to go job hunting in the Summer / over Christmas to work up a bit for graduation. Still doesn't mean my basic living costs are above what I'm provided with.

Jennikay

notafan wrote: »

£5924.16 total - Wilmslow Park Manchester - contracted out by Manchester Met and Manchester Uni - Single ensuite room this includes a discount for paying in one go.

1. That's a private hall, and it's ensuite. (No-one needs ensuite.)
2. Halls owned by UoM are significantly cheaper. (Mine is ~£4200 catered.)
3. Rented accom. is significantly cheaper. (Mine next year will be £3003. And I now won't need a bus pass at £175 for the year.)

£5900 is MORE than I paid last year to stay in Beit Hall, overlooking the Royal Albert Hall! :eek: