lpg heating - keep it or ditch it?

mindovermatter

Hi,
We have moved into a large stone detached house with an old lpg boiler. The house is as insulated as possible and we have 2 woodburning stoves as well.
Since moving here last year, we have seen 3 price rises in the coast of lpg and now face a dilemma.
My suggestion is to replace all the radiators with electric wall heaters (eg oil filled) and to heat the hot water via an immersion heater with solar hot water to back it up. We could even consider getting PV to generate electricity to heat up the immersion. Both the bathroom have electric showers.
My wife wants to get a new lpg boiler and keep with the the lpg option and retain all the radiators..
Can you help us decide please???
We have a budget of about £7000 to get it right (not inc PV)
Best wishes
Mindovermatter

bernithebiker

mindovermatter wrote: »

Hi,
We have moved into a large stone detached house with an old lpg boiler. The house is as insulated as possible and we have 2 woodburning stoves as well.
Since moving here last year, we have seen 3 price rises in the coast of lpg and now face a dilemma.
My suggestion is to replace all the radiators with electric wall heaters (eg oil filled) and to heat the hot water via an immersion heater with solar hot water to back it up. We could even consider getting PV to generate electricity to heat up the immersion. Both the bathroom have electric showers.
My wife wants to get a new lpg boiler and keep with the the lpg option and retain all the radiators..
Can you help us decide please???
We have a budget of about £7000 to get it right (not inc PV)
Best wishes
Mindovermatter

I am currently ditching an LPG system for a heat pump.

LPG prices are only going one way. Even when crude prices have backed off, LPG has stayed firm as demand for it is strong. LPG is propane and butane, both of which are blended into gasoline, especially in winter. It is also used in the petrochem industry, and countries without a good natural gas supply (like Japan) use alot of it for heating.

It's a no brainer. It has to go.

ilikecookies

Very similar story here - moved into a 5-bed property about 5 months ago which is on LPG and has a horrendously inefficient Rayburn boiler (probably 50% efficient at best). The LPG bills have been eye-watering - currently 54.5p per litre and going up from 1st April to 62.5p and we're burnt through 3000 litres since Oct.

Like the OP I *think* we have considered most of the options and so far have discounted the following:

1) Stick with LPG and just upgrade to a new, more efficient, LPG boiler. Installation cost probably around £3,500 (ie. £1800-£2000 for the boiler and the rest for installation to the existing system).

Reason discounted: having only been on LPG for 5 months (and seen multiple price increases) I wouldn't stick with this option for all the tea in China! Main gripes are that:

a) unlike oil there is no real competition: once you are locked into a 2-year supply contract you're screwed unlike with oil where you can ring round for a quote
b) LPG prices only seem to go up (at least with oil the price does fluctuate and lowers in the summer months)
c) LPG itself has a lower energy content per litre than oil yet my LPG price per litre is currently higher than oil - I really can't get my head around that at all!
d) our property, although well insulated, still gets through a good amount of litres (3000-3500 per year). The restrictions on bulk tank size (2200 litres max which can in fact only take 85% of this capacity due to expansion) means multiple top-ups which means we can't ride out price hikes over the winter
e) finally I also object to the standing charge/rental for a tank

2) GSHP. Installation cost guessing is between £12,000-£15,000 (to do a bore hole installation, installation of heat pump, oversizing of existing rads, etc).

Reason discounted: having read the EST report and the horror stories on here I just daren't risk spending this money for it either to not work or cost an absolute fortune in electricity. Also I'm not convinced our property lends itself to a GSHP - ie. it's a 5-bed with no underfloor heating. As the hot water temperature doesn't get as hot with a GSHP as a traditional boiler (think GSHP go to 50 degrees vs 85 degrees) we'd need to oversize all the radiators which then becomes a very big job indeed. I also worry about the maintenance and service costs of a newer technology.

3) Solar hot water. Installation cost: I'm guessing this would be in the region of £7000.

Discounted: expensive considering this is only a partial solution as whilst this could provide DHW we still need something for the rads and in the winter the efficiencies would be reduced. I also have a nagging feeling that the technology is only going to get both better and cheaper over time. I'd rather plump for solar to produce my own electricity and then offset this against the cost to run an immersion for hot water.

4) Electric / storage heaters. No idea what the installation cost would be but although we are already on Economy 7 for the size of the property the running cost would be prohibitive.

So what does this leave:

1) Convert to oil. Installation cost around £7000-£8000 (2500l litre storage tank, base, 36/46 external boiler and connection to existing system).

To some extent putting oil in feels like a backward step - ultimately oil prices like LPG will only increase. However against sticking with LPG we calculate that the payback period for the initial outlay will only be 4 years or so when you take into account the higher energy content of a litre of oil, the slightly higher efficiencies of oil boilers, no standing/rental charge for a tank and the ability to buy larger quantities of oil at a competitive prices at the cheaper times (ie. summer).

2) Convert to a biomass boiler (wood pellets, chippings, logs, etc) Installation costs: not totally sure but suspect around £10,000-£12,000.

My concerns with this option are the physical space required to have an automatically fed system as I can't be doing with hand-stoking the boiler every day and the concern that wood prices will only increase anyway. However, that said, I'd be keen to see what incentive the govt give to this approach if it remains part of the Renewable Heating Initiative (think this will be published in June).

Keen to hear further opinions of the options!

lovesgshp

To ilikecookies.

A few answers to one of your points re GSHP.

2) GSHP. Installation cost guessing is between £12,000-£15,000 (to do a bore hole installation, installation of heat pump, oversizing of existing rads, etc).
I do not know installation costs in the UK, or the sq.mtrs of your property, but you may be able to go for a compact collector system which only needs about 40 sq mtrs of garden area.
Radiator oversizing may not be needed. We recently installed a GSHP in Tuscany, Italy, (300 sq mtr + stone built house and low insulation levels ), which uses the existing radiators.

Reason discounted: having read the EST report and the horror stories on here I just daren't risk spending this money for it either to not work or cost an absolute fortune in electricity. Also I'm not convinced our property lends itself to a GSHP - ie. it's a 5-bed with no underfloor heating. As the hot water temperature doesn't get as hot with a GSHP as a traditional boiler (think GSHP go to 50 degrees vs 85 degrees) we'd need to oversize all the radiators which then becomes a very big job indeed. I also worry about the maintenance and service costs of a newer technology.
a) I have had a GSHP for over 5 years now and running costs are not high ( even here where electricity goes to about 23 Euro cents when you use over 4400 Kwh per year!!
b) With the right pumps,you can get 65C water temps.
c) Maintenance: Clean 2 filters usually per year (15-30 mins ) otherwise nothing else. A good system will normally come with 5 years full breakdown cover and up to 10 years on the compressor unit.

Hope this helps

bobmedley

Fit ducted air to air heat pump or individual hyperinverters and keep LPG as back-up in case of severe winter weather and to heat hot water.

I use individual heat pumps and have kept my oil CH to do exactly that.

Alternatively, fit modern storage heaters with hyperinverters - using E7 that should cover heating and HW efficiently with virtually no service costs.

lovesgshp

Total house running costs for here over the last 4 Years with the GSHP. Please remember our electricity costs are far higher than the UK and we have to pay extra per month per Kw supplied. We have 15Kw which is over the norm for a Italian house.( normally based on a 3Kw supply !!! )
Take the KWH and convert them to UK prices is the best I can suggest.

120 sq mtr house, stone built with only roof insulation and double glazing. Altitude 400 mtrs near the mountains and underfloor heating.

Electricity Costings

2007

2008

2009

2010

KW

Cost

KW

Cost

KW

Cost

KW

Cost

Jan/Feb

2522

556.52

2803

644.17

2849

862.96

*a2763

798.38

Mar/Apr

1793

408.69

1862

449.28

1742

502.58

*b1708

497.20

May/Jun

884

227.88

954

255.82

892

227.06

*c1426

310.02

Jul/Aug

835

219.88

879

245.52

793

187.12

*d1026

138.36

Sep/Oct

1345

324.81

1575

404.56

1306

352.68

*e1393

302.07

Nov/Dec

2194

702.66

1917

541.43

2304

622.42

*f2193

595.09

Totals

10573

2440.44

9990

2540.78

9886

2754.82

10509

2641.12

Already deducted from above costs, due to Enel overestimating usage:

a) overcharge from previous bill E48.31
b) “ “ “ “ E57.03
c) “ “ “ “ E65.77
d) “ “ “ “ E124.55
e) “ “ “ “ E68.44
f) “ “ “ “ E80.02

bernithebiker

yes, LPG IS more expensive then heating oil on an energy basis, because it is scarcer than HO, and has many desirable properties and many different applications. It is also harder to handle, transport and store.

BUT, it is cleaner burning, so less boiler maintenance.

Your list of disadvantages of LPG is quite correct.

I am strongly in favour of wood boilers if you have the space. In our main house we have a Guntamatic 44kW, and it's great. Pellet boilers are even better if you have space for a few m3 of pellets/chippings. Wood is very plentiful in Europe and prices should not go up too much. As a 'hedge' , you could buy a small piece of woodland.

mindovermatter

Many thanks for the comprehensive replies.

I think that the lpg has to go.

My question is how to heat the hot water? - use PV panels to generate electricity to help the immersion or solar or a combination of both?

I think that I will use oil filled radiators in the rooms.

We have plenty of wood for the stoves.

Best wishes

Mindovermatter

HappyMJ

Your cheapest option will be to remain as you are. If LPG prices go up to 62.5p/litre as has been stated in a reponse earlier then it's only 9p/kwh. That's about the same price as a discounted, online only, 12 month fixed non E7 electric tariff.

You could then choose to use it less and use the immersion more if you wanted to. Electric prices will rise too so switching to electric and removing the boiler will not be the best choice. Although your boiler might not be the most efficient on the market the capital cost of replacing it does not usually gain a payback time that is sufficient.

Electric heating will cost a lot. I would assume that each radiator would use an average of 1kw each hour. They can be rated up to 3kw but due to timers and thermostats you will use much less. Then take the number of radiators and multiply that by your electric rate to figure out how much that's going to cost per hour. You'll find it's about the same as LPG but you would have had to pay out for new radiators and your payback time would be many many years.

Normally an immersioin heater backs up a solar system not the other way around as you say. You have electric showers so you won't need a huge amount of hot water most of that will be supplied by the solar hot water and PV array. The immersion would only be used in winter for a few hours each day.

I'd use the wood stoves more.

It's up to you and I'd suggest making a spreadsheet with all your options to figure out what your payback times would be with each option.

longforgotten

Read all the posts... brain now fried

.... conclusion there is no cheap heating any more, whether its the cost of changing installation or the cost of fuel itself, they'll have our money one way or another :cool:

albyota

from a poster called edale.....http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=42144098&postcount=769

"We have just had our first week with our new Mitsubishi Ecodan ASHP so I thought I would give a report.

I looked at lots of information both good and bad on here and elsewhere before deciding that it was an option as long as the system was properly specified, our house was built in the late 60s has cavity wall insulation, double glazing throughout and good levels of loft insulation. Previous heating system was oil fired and the boiler was c25 years old and making strange noised, I had paid 70p per litre for the last fill and from end of October to mid March had used an average of 90 litres per week. The radiators only ran at 60C so I felt the lower temperature of the Ecodan should be sufficient.

We have the 14KW version and including a new unvented 300 litre cylinder and 3 new radiators cost just over £9K after the CERT funding has been deducted. A new oil boiler and cylinder would have cost in the region of £4K. Without RHI I felt the decision would be marginal financially, so I was disappointed when they weren't included last week, however I think they will be included in 2012 and this has appeared on the DECC website suggesting they will include them.

We have had a couple of frosts this week and I think the house is warmer than before, our hot water is definitely warmer. I have checked our electricity usage and in total we have used 263KWH from 8.30am last saturday to 8.30am this saturday which is about £22, this includes all other use (cooking, washing, tumble drier, lights tv etc). I have no doubt if we had fitted a new oil boiler it would have been much more efficient but think it would cost much more than this.

If they had anounced RHI even at half the previously proposed levels (7.5P per KWH) I would have been very happy. As it is I am still happy with the decision to fit the ASHP and any future RHI will make it a very good financial decision.

We still have to see how it performs in the extreme cold and I intend to fit a log burner as a backup just in case and to protect against powercuts.

I have no axe to grind and if I felt I had made a bad decision I would say so, when I decided to have it fitted I did feel there was a risk it wouldn't be effective but felt the oil companies ripped me off in December, this was a big motivator for me.

All in all I am very happy with the performance and running costs so far, if anyone wants to see it working I live near Worksop and would be happy to show you it. I am also happy to give any other feedback on it and will even enter into dialogue with Cardew, before you start I have no connection whatsoever to Mitsubishi or the ASHP industry."