Part time worker just made redundant

KiKi

ahall41116 wrote: »

my daughter has been told the meeting is informal, only her employer present taking minutes (?!)

it looks like the union rep cannot attend, so her employer is accepting a friend to join as witness (still forbidding me!)

If the employer is accepting a friend (rather than insisting on either a colleague of equal / less status or a TU rep) then there's no reason you shouldn't attend. I would go along. If they refuse to hold the meeting with you there, tell them you will not be able to attend until you can sort a date with the TU rep.

You have an Implied contract of employment.
This contract implies a Duty of Mutual trust and confidence: you agree to turn up to work on time, do ask you are asked, in return for being treated fairly. This contract was breeched when you received an email advising of your redundancy.

I'm not sure the contract was 'breached' as such - you can make someone redundant, but you have to follow a process and pay them if they've worked for more than 2 years. I'd say that they haven't followed the correct process for redundancy rather than breach of contract. Ask them for a copy of their redundancy policy.

You do not have a written statement of your terms and conditions of employment.
This would stipulate your employment status, hours of work, Holiday period, disciplinary procedure, lay-off procedure, redundancy process etc.
Without this, statutory minimums prevail. As you have nothing to stipulate you are a casual worker, there is no reason to assume you are not a casual worker.

Except that for three years she didn't ask for holiday etc, and unless they are very stupid, they will raise this.

Her only defence here is that although she assumed she was a permanent member of staff, because she'd never had a job before she didn't realise that she had holiday entitlement as she only worked weekends (or something else suggesting she was suitably naive).

Notice Period
You have worked for the fisheries for 3 full years, and this gives you a 3 week notice period, which can be paid in lieu.
1 week for each year (between 2 and 12 yrs employed) 3 weeks
Payment in lieu of notice 3 x 30 £90

This will only apply if they accept she was made permanent and therefore made redundant.

Something that just occurred to me: what did the email actually say?! This could be crucial. If it says 'laid off' 'redundant' then she has every reason to assume she was permanent. If it says 'we will no longer require your services and are giving you a week's notice' then they've implied she is casual. Obv if it's the latter, don't mention it. If it's the former, she has a case for showing that THEY obv considered her permanent.

Holiday Pay
You are legally entitled to 5.6 weeks of holiday pay (your worked week – can be an average of the last 12 weeks worked) per year, and as you do not have a written statement detailing when the holiday year starts and finishes, the year is based on your start date. This is believed to be April 6th 2007 (Easter weekend) 5.6 weeks holiday per year. 5.6 x 30 £168

However, the company may not have a policy allowing leave to be carried over (certainly not for three years, and claiming this retrospectively because she didn't realise rather than they deliberately held it from her might be difficult). Therefore she could be 'gracious' and tell them that she'll accept holiday pay for this year only, from April 6th 2010.

Remember, if they concede and give her either the holiday pay OR redundancy, then they are, in effect, admitting she is a permanent member of staff.


OP, I would turn up and be there with her. Do they know what you look like? You don't have to say you're her mother. Remember, you can't argue her case for her, but you can be there, take notes, and consult with her in the meeting. Your daughter could introduce you as 'Ash', who will be taking notes.

Whatever you do (and I mean this kindly), she is an adult, and going in to try and protect your daughter may not create a favourable impression with an employer!

Your daughter should go in with an idea of her minimum requirements. Ie, "if they offer redundancy and one year's holiday and lay off pay, then I will accept it and move on." Then she knows when to say 'okay, I accept your offer'. If she is not happy with the outcome in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER, she MUST NOT sign anything offered to her, or agree to anything which is being recorded.

She must remain calm and either accept the outcome or say she's not happy, and ask THEM what their next steps are. She must know what they're going to do next (then it goes on record, too).

If you absolutely cannot go in, and you want to go ahead with the meeting anyway, can I please suggest that she DOES take a friend in who takes notes. Otherwise it's her word against theirs.

She could also, ahem, record the conversation on a mobile phone or MP3 player, but I don't believe she could use it at an ET.

Her argument here is that they have broken the law in failing to provide a written statement of particulars. This left her employment status unconfirmed, and she believed she was a permanent member of staff.

Their argument will be that she did not act as a permanent member of staff because she didn't request holiday, and therefore she accepted temporary status. And they have a point.

Therefore she must be prepared to negotiate on this, and go in with an idea of what she's prepared to accept, and what she's prepared to give up. And as I said before (and I'll say it again), if she's not happy, she must *state* "I don't accept this outcome, so please advise me on your next steps to resolve this." If they say they'll do nothing, she should tell them she intends to take it further, and she will be in touch. And leave, end of. She mustn't sign anything or concede anything unless she's absolutely happy with it. And she shouldn't feel under pressure, either - if they want her to sign something, she can say she'll take it away to read and consider it.

I HTH - please let us know how she gets on. And GO IN with her. What are they going to do - refuse to have the meeting?! Good. Then it gets cancelled and the TU rep can come next time. Offer them a choice of you or the TU rep; they'll probably take you.

KiKi

ahall41116

KiKi wrote: »

If the employer is accepting a friend (rather than insisting on either a colleague of equal / less status or a TU rep) then there's no reason you shouldn't attend. I would go along. If they refuse to hold the meeting with you there, tell them you will not be able to attend until you can sort a date with the TU rep.




I'm not sure the contract was 'breached' as such - you can make someone redundant, but you have to follow a process and pay them if they've worked for more than 2 years. I'd say that they haven't followed the correct process for redundancy rather than breach of contract. Ask them for a copy of their redundancy policy. agreed




Except that for three years she didn't ask for holiday etc, and unless they are very stupid, they will raise this. i dont expect to get all holidays backdated, just current year

Her only defence here is that although she assumed she was a permanent member of staff, because she'd never had a job before she didn't realise that she had holiday entitlement as she only worked weekends (or something else suggesting she was suitably naive). agreed



This will only apply if they accept she was made permanent and therefore made redundant.

Something that just occurred to me: what did the email actually say?! This could be crucial. If it says 'laid off' 'redundant' then she has every reason to assume she was permanent. If it says 'we will no longer require your services and are giving you a week's notice' then they've implied she is casual. Obv if it's the latter, don't mention it. If it's the former, she has a case for showing that THEY obv considered her permanent.
Hi Alex
Thought that I should let you know about the cafe. Will and I have decided not to re-open this spring. It hasn't been an easy decision but given the current economic climate we really don't have a choice. Thanks very much for all your work over the years with us. If you need a reference anytime we'd be happy to give you one. All the best for the future and maybe see you around xxx/xxx.
Best wishes



However, the company may not have a policy allowing leave to be carried over (certainly not for three years, and claiming this retrospectively because she didn't realise rather than they deliberately held it from her might be difficult). Therefore she could be 'gracious' and tell them that she'll accept holiday pay for this year only, from April 6th 2010.

Remember, if they concede and give her either the holiday pay OR redundancy, then they are, in effect, admitting she is a permanent member of staff.


OP, I would turn up and be there with her. Do they know what you look like? (dont think so) You don't have to say you're her mother (father actually! lol!). Remember, you can't argue her case for her, but you can be there, take notes, and consult with her in the meeting. Your daughter could introduce you as 'Ash', who will be taking notes.

Whatever you do (and I mean this kindly), she is an adult, and going in to try and protect your daughter may not create a favourable impression with an employer! (i know, but she's onyl 20, and will be bamboozled easily...)

Your daughter should go in with an idea of her minimum requirements. Ie, "if they offer redundancy and one year's holiday and lay off pay, then I will accept it and move on." Then she knows when to say 'okay, I accept your offer'. If she is not happy with the outcome in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER, she MUST NOT sign anything offered to her, or agree to anything which is being recorded.

She must remain calm and either accept the outcome or say she's not happy, and ask THEM what their next steps are. She must know what they're going to do next (then it goes on record, too).

If you absolutely cannot go in, and you want to go ahead with the meeting anyway, can I please suggest that she DOES take a friend in who takes notes. Otherwise it's her word against theirs.

She could also, ahem, record the conversation on a mobile phone or MP3 player, but I don't believe she could use it at an ET. (i did think of this myself!)

Her argument here is that they have broken the law in failing to provide a written statement of particulars. This left her employment status unconfirmed, and she believed she was a permanent member of staff.

Their argument will be that she did not act as a permanent member of staff because she didn't request holiday, and therefore she accepted temporary status. And they have a point.

Therefore she must be prepared to negotiate on this, and go in with an idea of what she's prepared to accept, and what she's prepared to give up. And as I said before (and I'll say it again), if she's not happy, she must *state* "I don't accept this outcome, so please advise me on your next steps to resolve this." If they say they'll do nothing, she should tell them she intends to take it further, and she will be in touch. And leave, end of. She mustn't sign anything or concede anything unless she's absolutely happy with it. And she shouldn't feel under pressure, either - if they want her to sign something, she can say she'll take it away to read and consider it.

I HTH - please let us know how she gets on. And GO IN with her. What are they going to do - refuse to have the meeting?! Good. Then it gets cancelled and the TU rep can come next time. Offer them a choice of you or the TU rep; they'll probably take you.

KiKi

Thanks so much for your advice. you have a pm!

Raksha

I was made redundant just before Christmas - because it was voluntary (meant the employer didn't have to go through the rigmarole of giving me three months notice etc.) He had to pay for me to visit a solicitor to look over my agreed redundancy terms and advise me on their implications.

ahall41116

Hi
Just to let you know who the meeting went.

Employer acknowledged all daughters hard work while employed part time, and wanted to make amends for closing cafe

She had done some homework, and had calculated average weekly pay rather than last months, coming out @ £43 per week

She offered 3 weeks lieu of notice and 1.5 wks redundancy payment

I would have pushed for holiday payment as a trade off for lay-off pay, but daughter accepted and received a chq for £193, which is far more than she was expecting

Thanks for all your constructive help - I wish I could share the bottle o vodka daughter bought me, but .....

Ash

DCFC79

Im in similar position with being made redundant so i wish your dd good luck with finding a new job

ahall41116

She already has another part time job for a large supermarket which has lots of little things that helps, but I'm pushing her to take that on full-time

Good luck in your own persuits

Ash

Raksha

Glad to hear it was all sorted amicably and that your daughter is keeping herself busy.

anamenottaken

Raksha wrote: »

I was made redundant just before Christmas - because it was voluntary (meant the employer didn't have to go through the rigmarole of giving me three months notice etc.) He had to pay for me to visit a solicitor to look over my agreed redundancy terms and advise me on their implications.

I don't believe this is required by law. A straightforward voluntary redundancy scheme is not where the employer is required to pay for legal advice for the employee.

When they do have to pay for independent legal advice from a solicitor is when someone leaves under a compromise agreement.

getmore4less

ahall41116 wrote: »

Hi
Just to let you know who the meeting went.

Employer acknowledged all daughters hard work while employed part time, and wanted to make amends for closing cafe

She had done some homework, and had calculated average weekly pay rather than last months, coming out @ £43 per week

She offered 3 weeks lieu of notice and 1.5 wks redundancy payment

I would have pushed for holiday payment as a trade off for lay-off pay, but daughter accepted and received a chq for £193, which is far more than she was expecting

Thanks for all your constructive help - I wish I could share the bottle o vodka daughter bought me, but .....

Ash

The averaging needs to be done over 12 weeks of paid weeks counting backwards, so non paid weeks don't count and you go back extra weeks till you have 12 paid ones.

If this £43 pw is wrong go back for more money

why drop the fight for the lay off money

xangeleyes

Glad it all got sorted out for her
Well done, you s hould be proud of yourself