Carers

Sixer

krisskross wrote: »

So can we have our £1500 a week please? Could be more if his diabetes needs extra input.

This is the reasoning of the madhouse that people manipulate to prove that 'carers' should get hundreds of £s a week.

You did get me thinking, so I investigated.

The various recentish headline claims - to which I assume you refer - that carers save the NHS £87bn a year and deserve more public purse support for what they do all quote research by Carers UK in their most recent financial report "Valuing Carers". You can download it here:

http://www.carersuk.org/Professionals/ResearchLibrary/Profileofcaring/1201108437

I quote:

"The estimate of the value of carers’ contribution presented here (see Table 1) is calculated using a methodology similar to that used in 2002 which is based on a formula published by the Institute of Actuaries. Here, the unit cost for replacement care is taken as £14.50 per hour".

The Actuary calculation of £14.50 an hour is based on either the total amount (including wages and admin) of supporting someone in a care home or the total amount (including wages, transport and admin) of maintaining mobile health or social/care workers for the field.

So there you go.

SingleSue

My training to administer my now ex husbands injections consisted of a session with an orange lasting about 20 minutes.

The orange did not survive my administrations but luckily, I mastered it enough to keep my husband alive on several occasions :rotfl:

krisskross

Sixer wrote: »

You did 50-60 intravenous injections and infusions VIA HOME VISITS in one single shift? Wow. What transport did you use?

I don't think anyone was saying there is £100 of labour in giving one injection at home. You're saying a pie's not the same as a pasty. Straw man reply and not on topic.

No idea how much it does cost. But this is a silly reply

No in a hospital so no transport costs but everything else would have had the same cost. Plus surely it should cost MORE to administer an injection in a hospital. The inpatients are being fed, all laundry provided, heating etc.

krisskross

SingleSue wrote: »

My training to administer my now ex husbands injections consisted of a session with an orange lasting about 20 minutes.

The orange did not survive my administrations but luckily, I mastered it enough to keep my husband alive on several occasions :rotfl:

This was how we were taught in my nurse training:rotfl:

Wee_Willy_Harris

krisskross wrote: »

No in a hospital so no transport costs but everything else would have had the same cost. Plus surely it should cost MORE to administer an injection in a hospital. The inpatients are being fed, all laundry provided, heating etc.

You seem to want to include the attendant costs in one side of the cost argument, yet ignore them in the other. As you say yourself, a nurse doing home visits couldn't possibly attend to the number of patients a hospital based nurse could. There are savings in scale.

krisskross

Wee_Willy_Harris wrote: »

You seem to want to include the attendant costs in one side of the cost argument, yet ignore them in the other. As you say yourself, a nurse doing home visits couldn't possibly attend to the number of patients a hospital based nurse could. There are savings in scale.

No it was another poster who wanted to add in the attendant costs like transport from 1 patient to the next, syringes, needles, drugs etc.

To me these costs are exactly the same wherever the drug is administered. The only difference will be the transport costs for the nurse to get to the patient and time taken versus the cost of keeping a hospital running and paying for someones food, laundry, heating etc.

I worked in a very spread out hospital and I estimate that at least 90 minutes a shift was spent getting from ward to ward. So even a hospital based nurse has 'travelling time'.

Oldernotwiser

Sixer wrote: »

You did get me thinking, so I investigated.

The various recentish headline claims - to which I assume you refer - that carers save the NHS £87bn a year and deserve more public purse support for what they do all quote research by Carers UK in their most recent financial report "Valuing Carers". You can download it here:

http://www.carersuk.org/Professionals/ResearchLibrary/Profileofcaring/1201108437

I quote:

"The estimate of the value of carers’ contribution presented here (see Table 1) is calculated using a methodology similar to that used in 2002 which is based on a formula published by the Institute of Actuaries. Here, the unit cost for replacement care is taken as £14.50 per hour".

The Actuary calculation of £14.50 an hour is based on either the total amount (including wages and admin) of supporting someone in a care home or the total amount (including wages, transport and admin) of maintaining mobile health or social/care workers for the field.

So there you go.

I'm sure CarersUK is an excellent organisation but not the place to look for unbiased information. If there is a need to compare the costs of care given by a family member and that given by a carer, there seems to be no reason not to compare it with the simple hourly rate that you would pay someone direct, which is likely to be in the region of £6/8. Including admin/organisational costs is a red herring.

However, even on that basis, I don't feel that it's a valid comparison.

krisskross

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

I'm sure CarersUK is an excellent organisation but not the place to look for unbiased information. If there is a need to compare the costs of care given by a family member and that given by a carer, there seems to be no reason not to compare it with the simple hourly rate that you would pay someone direct, which is likely to be in the region of £6/8. Including admin/organisational costs is a red herring.

However, even on that basis, I don't feel that it's a valid comparison.

It also needs to be remembered that someone within a family receiving carers allowance will probably also be in receipt of a 'share' of other benefits such as LHA/HB, Council tax benefit etc which would also need to be taken into consideration. It isn't just how much you get in your hand.

I really cannot get my head round this needing to be paid for looking after one's husband or child. I honestly thought this was what wives/husbands/parents did.

Oldernotwiser

krisskross wrote: »

It also needs to be remembered that someone within a family receiving carers allowance will probably also be in receipt of a 'share' of other benefits such as LHA/HB, Council tax benefit etc which would also need to be taken into consideration. It isn't just how much you get in your hand.

I really cannot get my head round this needing to be paid for looking after one's husband or child. I honestly thought this was what wives/husbands/parents did.

Your first point is exactly what I was thinking; it's not a simple case of just living on CA and nothing else.

I also agree with your second point, as long as other income is enough to live on.

Sixer

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

I'm sure CarersUK is an excellent organisation but not the place to look for unbiased information. If there is a need to compare the costs of care given by a family member and that given by a carer, there seems to be no reason not to compare it with the simple hourly rate that you would pay someone direct, which is likely to be in the region of £6/8. Including admin/organisational costs is a red herring.

However, even on that basis, I don't feel that it's a valid comparison.

Oh, I agree valid comparisons are difficult. However, your comparisons are equally "invalid". They've taken care to include independent actuarial calculations - these say that it costs £14.50 per hour of care to replace:

a) situations with no carer in which the caree would have to go into a care home

b) situations with no carer in which the caree would require state service at home

So: nurses cost a great deal more than £6-8 an hour. Delivery of meals on wheels costs admin, the meal, the transport plus £6-8 per hour for the delivery agent, a standard carer visit costs admin overheads, transport, plus £6-8 an hour for the carer.

I think the argument MAY lie in people who are carers but in instances where the caree could possibly manage for themselves. And that's a whole different kettle of fish. And in what families should do ANYWAY - should care go only to those who have no family? And that's another kettle again.

£14.50 an hour including admin, transport and wages for a state apparatus to provide care is probably conservative. There may be arguments about what care the state should provide, but this sum isn't really arguable - unless you're being deliberately awkward.