Solar Heating - grant aid and advice?

Skiduck

Cardew wrote:

Exactly!

So perhaps you can point out where Clear-Skies recommends that fitting Solar panels or wind turbines is financially viable for existing householders.

I doubt if there is a single firm in the alternative energy field that doesn't give a reference to Clear Skies and try to give the impression that they have some support from that organisation.

All we want from any firm is some proper data! Guarantee of fitting costs, running/servicing costs, guaranteed outputs, life of system etc etc.

Armed with that data, most of us can work out if systems are viable.

For instance the 'solarkent' site referred to at the beginning of this thread gives a predicted output of 4,500kWh per year for a complex system that cost £3,600 to install. That for someone with Gas represents savings of approx £90 a year and with Economy 7 similar savings.

From that total of £90 savings there is the cost of running a pump to be deducted. I don't know what servicing costs are(does not the system need expensive anti freeze?). I would be very surprised if a system that uses, pipes, panels, mechanical pumps and electronics would last for years.

As you are in the business of selling systems, could you not provide this thread with some data along these lines please.

please point out where I have said solar panels will save money at this moment in time?

All I have done is provided people with information and advised that in the near future sustainable energy WILL be financially viable.

Please get your facts straight before accusing me of the same.

Cardew

Skiduck wrote:

please point out where I have said solar panels will save money at this moment in time?

All I have done is provided people with information and advised that in the near future sustainable energy WILL be financially viable.

Please get your facts straight before accusing me of the same.

Please read the title of this thread.

So I take it that you are conceding that, with current technology, solar energy is not financially viable?

Also please look back through the posts and find where I have accused you of anything; I am not aware that I have.

I have disputed Simon's savings and his contention that the system will last forever.

All I have requested is that you provide data to back up any claims you make when the industry decide to sell solar and other alternative energy systems that they contend are finacially viable.

The average household spends in the region of £100 -£150 pa on Domestic Hot Water(5,000 -8,000 kWh). Even if a system was invented that supplied ALL this hot water that would be the maximum savings a household could expect to save. That is before costs of pump and maintenance/depreciation are taken into account. Surely that should be the start point for any consideration of the financial advantages of solar.

Certainly I am antagonistic toward the industry in which you are employed. Frankly it is full of cowboys and some of their carefully worded claims on costs border on deception. Their emphasis is always on Environmental issues.

I really have no wish to bring this discussion down to a personal level. However, working in the Industry, you have a vested interest. Therefore if you choose to post, on a money saving site, extolling the virtues of alternative energy you should not be so sensitive if you are challenged - that is what a forum is all about.

Lastly if in 'sustainable energy will become financially viable in the near future' it begs the question why are so many firms are peddling current technology when it is not financially viable?

Skiduck

I am not conceding anything, I have made no claims in that I need to back down from. The industry being "full of cowboys" is nonsense, like many industries, there are cowboys out there.
Read my first post, giving answers to peoples questions - yes this is a money saving forum, but other questions are asked and need to be answered, if you just had a forum about money saving tips, it would be a pile of 2 threaded posts.
The virtues of sustainable energy are already there, apart from it being cheaper than gas AT THE MOMENT - it will take years to recoup the cost of installation but will reduce your fossil fuel bills, as I have already explained.
I got into this industry because of my scientific interest, not my financial interest as we are quite capable of running a very succesful business without the need to explore sustainable energy. You seem to have your mind set that sustainable energy is purely solar, there are self sustainable homes out there already using about 20% solar.

BTW do you work for a utilities company?

And my final word on this is AGAIN.

I have never said that solar energy will save anyone any money - please read again my first post, which is a post of facts and advice.

paul_h

I found an interesting quote here -

http://www.selfbuildabc.co.uk/building/self-build-house-solar-power.htm

It is a misconception that solar panels only work with direct sunlight - solar power collectors can heat water on a very cloudy day (luckily for us in the UK!). A system has an expected service life of 20 years.

While solar power will not support a central heating system, a substantial supply of domestic hot water can be provided. This means a traditional boiler should be installed to supplement the solar output but a reduction of your hot water bill of around 50 percent is normal.

I would agree that most spend around £100-£150 per year on DHW, so even for a DIY installed system the payback period does seem to be far longer that the useful life of the system, making it impossible to recoup the cost of the system.

kittiwoz

This is rather interesting. It seems that the main barrier to solar hot water being financially viable is that most people just aren't able to use the capacity that it provides in the Summer so it goes to waste. I can't imagine many people teaming up with their neighbours to buy them one between two, which is the obvious solution if you live in a semi or terrace. I guess this is something which is only going to take off as fuel prices rise or if they get written into building regs. That might make sense especially since it's much cheaper to install solar hot water on a new build. In many ways it sounds like the best place for solar water heating would be the roof of a block of flats but that's not likely to happen without regulation.

paul_h

The bottom line is that the average 3 bedroom household needs a minimum of 4 sq.m of collector area to be able to provide enough DHW during the summer months - at 4 sq.m there is little excess capacity on most days, unless the sun is particularly hot. Multiple housing units will require multiples of 4 sq.m collectors and associated storage to provide enough DHW reliably throughout the summer.

The only way I can see solar DHW taking off is if the systems are subsidised to the point of financial viability - we are a very long way from this at the moment. I have also heard the argument that fuel prices could increase - if this was keeping you awake at night, you could always invest the money saved from not installing a solar DHW system in an investmest fund linked to energy futures.

Solar DHW is not a bad thing, but it's currently more of a lifestyle choice.

kittiwoz

There's practically no chance the goverment will subsidise solar DHW to the point of financial viability. It's much more likely to end up as a feature of new buildings regs since the cost of installation on a new build is only about £1500. Not that that is necessarily likely either. Certainly not beyond the scope of possibility though.

Skiduck

kittiwoz wrote:

There's practically no chance the goverment will subsidise solar DHW to the point of financial viability. It's much more likely to end up as a feature of new buildings regs since the cost of installation on a new build is only about £1500. Not that that is necessarily likely either. Certainly not beyond the scope of possibility though.

every new build from next year will have to be 20% sustainable, obviously open to interpretation, as you could just use grey water to feed your toilets rather than any sustainable energy technology

Iffy_Wallet

Hi, can I confuse the issue a little, and mention (as someone already has) the idea of heat pumps. They are sometimes referred to as "geothermal energy", which isn't strictly accurate - nothing to do with volcanoes etc - they just extract natural heat from the ground, and hope that the sun will replenish it.

There are a number of companies on the go with this technology - here's just a few (and, no, I don't work in the industry, or have any financial connections with any of them):

http://www.sofath.com/default_gb.cfm
http://www.geoheat.co.uk/
http://www.viessmann.co.uk/products/renewableenergy/heatpumps/

http://www.viessmann.co.uk/products/renewableenergy/solarpanels/
http://www.greenshop.co.uk/solar/
http://www.imerys-rooftiles.com/united_kingdom/ (SPECIAL TILE Photovoltaic tile)


Now what my question is, and I'd be interested if Martin could start asking a few questions in the right places, is:

I have seen a few government offers of help, and substantial grants being pulled in the last few months, directly related with domestic use of renewable energy. So how come when Mr Blair is spouting off about the country using renewable energy, is he pulling the plug on helping simple domestic installations of renewable energy?

paul_h

Also lots of good info, and DIY installations here -

http://www.kensaengineering.com/

Iffy_Wallet wrote:

Now what my question is, and I'd be interested if Martin could start asking a few questions in the right places, is:

I have seen a few government offers of help, and substantial grants being pulled in the last few months, directly related with domestic use of renewable energy. So how come when Mr Blair is spouting off about the country using renewable energy, is he pulling the plug on helping simple domestic installations of renewable energy?

The Clear-Skies grants have been replaced by the DTI's Low Carbon Building's Programme, applications for grants are being taken from the 24th April. Grants for heat pump systems are 30% of cost, up to £1,200. More information on the types and levels of grants available here -

http://www.est.org.uk/housingbuildings/funding/lowcarbonbuildings/