Solar Heating - grant aid and advice?

Skiduck

Cardew wrote:

I thought that might be the case.

Whilst any information on new developments will be interesting, I hope that any advice you offer will bear in mind that this is a money saving forum and give figures of installation/running costs and savings that will stand scrutiny.

I have been interested in this subject for quite a while and have spoken to firms whose claims were frankly preposterous. So, as you might have gathered from previous posts, I am extremely skeptical about the claims made for alternative energy.

I spend a lot of time in the USA and even in the warmer Southern States(with far more sunshine than UK) there have been studies that show it is simply not financially viable; and, contrary to public opinion, gas and electricity prices are comparable with Europe.

Technological advances and increasing prices in fossil fuels will see the cost savings in sustainable energy in the very near future. In the past, sustainable energy was more ecologically sound than financially sound, the ratio of these 2 factors are now reversing. At the moment it is not free energy, but watch this space. I would also like you to bear in mind the amount of different kinds of sustainable energy about and even the wide variety in the same catergory.
Any advice I give here is a response to a question asked- whether it is a money saving forum or not, a question has to be answered.
Please allow your self scepticism rather than negativity.

Cardew

Skiduck wrote:

Please allow your self scepticism rather than negativity.

I am not certain I understand that sentence.

I am negative/sceptical(call it what you will) simply because I have seen nothing in any independent technical publication that indicates that alternative energy is, or is liable to be in the near future, an economic proposition for domestic users.

The whole area is a minefield in which a lot of ‘cowboys’ operate and obfuscate with irrelevant technical jargon. Britain has a history of allowing firms to operate in a variety of fields, making dubious claims, duping the gullible and then going out of business.

If/when economically viable alternative energy systems become available you can be certain that Independent technical bodies, Consumer magazines like Which and indeed Governments around the world, will be championing these systems and we will be exhorted to get them fitted. I will be one of the first to do so!

Until then I think that everyone should be wary of paying for systems on the advice of commercial organisations and salesmen with vested interests. Any reputable company will be able to provide guarantees of installation/running costs and quote specific minimum outputs that will stand scrutiny and not vague claims of 'up to 35% savings.'

Any company that has confidence in its product in this field will get financial backing from a host of major financial/commercial organisations like banks and building societies or even Governments. If the systems are viable in UK just think how much more viable they will be in countries with warmer climates than ours.

the_reductionist

My system will pay for itself in around five years but I confess it forms only a part of my reduction on fossil fuel use. I also have a woodburner and am currently investigating geothermal heat pumps (for underfloor heating) and domestic windturbines. The former is well-established technology and probably the most efficient of any heat transfer technology. The latter is proving controversial at the moment with British companies like Windsave claiming efficiencies not widely accepted - you can follow the debates on various websites.

Skiduck

check out http://www.clear-skies.org/ for an independant body

Skiduck

Cardew wrote:

If the systems are viable in UK just think how much more viable they will be in countries with warmer climates than ours.

Solar energy is not derived from heat - it's mainly difussed radiation - ie presence of natural sunlight (even on cloudy days)

simonm_3

I have solar thermal and solar PV. The PV is my bit for the environment and I don't expect a payback. The thermal however has been installed as a cost saver . I have three genersys panels and a new hot water cylinder. The whole lot cost about £3600. It has now been running for a year and has saved me at least a tanks worth (1,300 litres) of fuel oil. At over 35p a litre thats about £450 .
The economic viability is. A 6% loan to buy the system would be £216 per year so I have approx £240 left over to repay the initial investment, the system should last indefinitely so as an investment giving me a return of £240 - remember this is a loan so as long as I pay the interest what I do with the rest is up to me..
In fact I bought the system from savings, which effectively cost me the loss of approx £100 a year interest payments but I gained over £450 a year in energy savings. Again I am ahead by £350!
Basically, anybody with an oil burner is a fool not to install solar thermal.
Add the fact that I needed a new cylinder anyway and the savings are even better!

Cardew

Skiduck wrote:

check out http://www.clear-skies.org/ for an independant body

Exactly!

So perhaps you can point out where Clear-Skies recommends that fitting Solar panels or wind turbines is financially viable for existing householders.

I doubt if there is a single firm in the alternative energy field that doesn't give a reference to Clear Skies and try to give the impression that they have some support from that organisation.

All we want from any firm is some proper data! Guarantee of fitting costs, running/servicing costs, guaranteed outputs, life of system etc etc.

Armed with that data, most of us can work out if systems are viable.

For instance the 'solarkent' site referred to at the beginning of this thread gives a predicted output of 4,500kWh per year for a complex system that cost £3,600 to install. That for someone with Gas represents savings of approx £90 a year and with Economy 7 similar savings.

From that total of £90 savings there is the cost of running a pump to be deducted. I don't know what servicing costs are(does not the system need expensive anti freeze?). I would be very surprised if a system that uses, pipes, panels, mechanical pumps and electronics would last for years.

As you are in the business of selling systems, could you not provide this thread with some data along these lines please.

paul_h

simonm wrote:

It has now been running for a year and has saved me at least a tanks worth (1,300 litres) of fuel oil. At over 35p a litre thats about £450 .

I've got 5 sq.m of solar panels on the roof which I inherited when I bought this house 6 years ago, providing domestic hot water. I have all the paperwork relating to the installation, so I know how much the system cost the previous owner for installation and subsequent servicing.

Even with Cardew's figure of 4,500 kWh saving per annum, which is close to the average annual household usage, little of this is available during winter. Your saving of 1300 litres of oil is equivalent to over 10,000 kWh of energy assuming a modern 80% efficient boiler. The average household only uses 5,000 kWh per annum for DHW anyway, and given that the DHW output of these systems is much lower during the winter, 10,000+ kWh per annum saving does seem unlikely to me.

Don't forget that there are ongoing maintenance costs, and a small pump to run. I do my own servicing, the antifreeze (Fernox Alphi-11) is only about £20/gallon, which saves on the maintenance cost...

As Cardew says, these system do have a finite life and components will fail over time and need replacement. However, although I have an older system, it still performs very well. Collector technology does not seem to have moved on very far, although the controls on the new systems may be more advanced. One useful advance is the introduction of systems which drain the panels when not running, these systems are supposed to be 'maintenance free'.

Another point to bear in mind is that you could have bought a standard cylinder for 1/4 the price of a solar one...

These domestic hot water systems do work, and work well, but I have to agree with Cardew that they are not really financially viable, unless like me you inherit it for nothing - IMHO it added no value to the house.

Even a DIY installation is still going to cost you £2500+, the only other way the payback period could be considerably reduced is by using DIY built components, which is possible with plans currently available.

Cardew

simonm wrote:

I have solar thermal and solar PV. The PV is my bit for the environment and I don't expect a payback. The thermal however has been installed as a cost saver . I have three genersys panels and a new hot water cylinder. The whole lot cost about £3600. It has now been running for a year and has saved me at least a tanks worth (1,300 litres) of fuel oil. At over 35p a litre thats about £450 .
The economic viability is. A 6% loan to buy the system would be £216 per year so I have approx £240 left over to repay the initial investment, the system should last indefinitely so as an investment giving me a return of £240 - remember this is a loan so as long as I pay the interest what I do with the rest is up to me..
In fact I bought the system from savings, which effectively cost me the loss of approx £100 a year interest payments but I gained over £450 a year in energy savings. Again I am ahead by £350!
Basically, anybody with an oil burner is a fool not to install solar thermal.
Add the fact that I needed a new cylinder anyway and the savings are even better!

I have followed your site(solarkent) with interest but I am afraid that I must strongly disagree with your conclusions and figures.

Although you haven’t updated you data for December, from your own figures the cumulative output from your system for 11 months is 4,350 kWh. So for a year it will be approx 4,500 kWh – would you agree with that figure?

However you claim to have saved:

At least a tanks worth (1,300 litres) of fuel oil. At over 35p a litre that’s about £450 .

The calorific value of central heating oil according to Government data is 10.8kWh per litre. At 35p a litre that gives a cost of 3.24p per kWh. Assuming that a boiler has a low efficiency of 80%(modern condensing boilers are 95%) that is an effective cost of 4p a kWh.

Therefore 1,300 litres of oil produces 14,040 kWh. With a boiler efficiency of 80% that still means 11,232 kWh.

So your savings on 4,500 kWh would be no more than £180.

Also if you only had access to oil you would be much better off heating your water with Economy Seven electricity. 100% efficiency, no servicing costs and costs typically 2/3p a kWh.

You haven’t deducted from your savings the cost of running the system, pump electronics etc.

What about servicing costs? antifreeze etc.

Also to claim that “the system should last indefinitely”, for a system that includes electronics, pumps, pipes, panels etc, just doesn’t bear scrutiny.

I really do find it surprising that for someone who started a site giving detailed costs, you resort to making unsupportable and vague claims about what you have saved. It is difficult to escape the conclusion that your commercial link up with Genersys PLC has been an influence in making such claims. Although such claims are typical of firms in this field.

Far from "being a fool not to have solar heating" it seems to me that your actual savings(as opposed to your claims) demonstrate that it would be financial folly to fit such a system.

I am sorry to be so blunt. However this web-site is to advise those interested in saving money, and not a platform for those with a vested interest in selling systems. So if you disagree with my figures on savings and conclusions, please let us debate them here.

Skiduck

Cardew wrote:

Exactly!

So perhaps you can point out where Clear-Skies recommends that fitting Solar panels or wind turbines is financially viable for existing householders.

I doubt if there is a single firm in the alternative energy field that doesn't give a reference to Clear Skies and try to give the impression that they have some support from that organisation.

All we want from any firm is some proper data! Guarantee of fitting costs, running/servicing costs, guaranteed outputs, life of system etc etc.

Armed with that data, most of us can work out if systems are viable.

For instance the 'solarkent' site referred to at the beginning of this thread gives a predicted output of 4,500kWh per year for a complex system that cost £3,600 to install. That for someone with Gas represents savings of approx £90 a year and with Economy 7 similar savings.

From that total of £90 savings there is the cost of running a pump to be deducted. I don't know what servicing costs are(does not the system need expensive anti freeze?). I would be very surprised if a system that uses, pipes, panels, mechanical pumps and electronics would last for years.

As you are in the business of selling systems, could you not provide this thread with some data along these lines please.

If you care to look through all the links and data that clearskies give, you may find your answers, I'm not going to bother spelling it out for you as I find your whole attitude quite antagonistic.
Sustainable energy is not just limited to solar panels or the inefficient wind turbines.