Plumber worries.

typeractive

Hi all.

I'm in a bit of a dilemma and I'm after a spot of advice. I am worried the work my plumber has done.

My friend is appalled by his work and tells me not to have him back. His welds are really messy (whilst that is bad craftsmanship I kind of think at least they will be sealed?) the pipe layout is messy, and the other day he was employed for 10 hours and really didn't achieve a lot. The cutting out for the bath waste through my bathroom floor looked like he used a spoon

To date he has installed all the pipe work (copper) for my house which is pretty big. I think it started in 22mm and branched off to 15mm.

Rooms:
Vestibule (1 rad)
Living room (1 rad - big one, gas supply for gas fire)
Dining room (1 rad)
Hallway (1 rad)
Kitchen (1 rad, 1 gas supply, hot & cold supply)
Upstairs hall (1 rad)
Bed 3 (small room) (1 rad)
Bathroom plumbing (shower, bath, basin, toilet, 1 rad)
Bed 2 (1 rad)
Bed 1 (1 rad) & En suite (basin, shower, toilet, saniflo)
Attic (1 rad)

I think that's all the rads - around 11 in total. All that is in so far is the pipe work for the central heating and most of the en suite and bathroom appliances. The wastes’ need to be carried out to the stack yet (except the saniflo).

I have spent £2,315 on all the work (labour, copper and fixings etc). Does this sound extortionate or about right for the first fix? I am yet to buy the rads and boiler etc.

Recently with me being unhappy with his work I am thinking of getting rid of him. He is always grumpy, and every job is always 'hard work'. Which is fair enough but he makes me feel guilty for asking. The house is a derelict conversion and everyone else I have spoke to says that is a dream to work in!
Usually I’d just say on ya bike, though it’s not quite as simple because:

1. He has laid all the pipes to date, so I am not sure anyone would feel comfortable continuing his job on. The LAST thing I want is someone else messing it up and using his work as an excuse / blaming each other. At least if he finishes the work off then I can hold him accountable for everything.

2.He has done work for my mum n dad in the past. So if I don’t invite him back to finish it off, my parents won’t be able to use him in the future (which I think they would be ok about really, as I just heard that he annoyed my dad the last time he was here (which takes a lot – trust me! Lol)).

I’m pretty confident he is ‘good’ on the central heating side and ‘knows his stuff’, but I worry about the quality of his work. (e.g. in my bathroom he ran pipes along the side of the wall, where I wanted them under the floor popping out – so I had to get him back to change it. In doing so, I ended up notching the joists for him). Also I have had to lay his pipes further into the bathroom walls for the showers, as when he has left them I can not get a plasterboard on to sit flush – this also applies to some floorboards that I can not get to sit back down. This is poor.

I’m really tempted to go on the my builder site explaining the situation and see if anyone is willing to come and finish the job off with proper testing etc. Or he’s quite close to finishing the work, I’m wondering if I stick with him and just tell him I’m unhappy with the standard – so the rest I want to be top notch. I don’t feel I can leave him to work unsupervised as I don’t know what I will return to.

The one good thing is – I have a quotation for all the rads and boiler, so I have a good idea of how much they would be costing, and they were good ones.

I fully know my post is an obvious – get rid. Reading it back over I can clearly see the way I have wrote this about his work etc would be enough to suggest to anyone, get rid!

Though like I say I worry that someone else taking the work on will mess it up or I’ll be in a position where I have to try and prove who is at fault.

Here are some pics to highlight what I have mentioned.

Pipe work welds - close up.



Hole cut in the floor of my bathroom for bath waste (not best pic)



Floor boards, and pipe work for sanislim



Messy pipe layout. (This is now worse - which is partially my fault as to be fair I did change my mind on the location of the bath taps - but still it looks like spaghetti junction).




...and if you made it this far I thank you very much for reading and looking at my pics.

Thanks in advance!

aboard_epsilon

other than the messy joints ..it don't look that bad to me ..the hole under the bath will be hidden .

a lot of the other work will be hidden

I'm not a plumber ..but i would be stareing and wondering for ten hours before i made something as complex as that ..
takes some susing out ..

if you want to see real bad work ..
have a look at this
http://npower-gas-install-photos.posterous.com/

all the pipe work is on show above and will not be hidden as yours will be .

perhaps he intends to clean stuff up after he's finished and checked for leaks.

the stuff under the bath can be left on show .on top of the floor boards ..as it will all be hidden in the end by the bath panel ..to pull every floor board up and do extra work will cost extra money ..and weeken joists ..


BTW ..has this been going on for several months ..as the pipes dont look bright and new anymore
all the best.markj

typeractive

Thanks aboard_epsilon!!!

other than the messy joints ..it don't look that bad to me ..the hole under the bath will be hidden .

a lot of the other work will be hidden

Yeah - it will. (Fortunately) Though in the bathroom he did have the pipes running along on top of the floor (the plasterboard would have covered them through being dot n dabbed, though I really wanted them popping up through the floor - so had to get him to change it (with my help).

I'm not a plumber ..but i would be stareing and wondering for ten hours before i made something as complex as that ..
takes some susing out ..

Yeah - it does. Though the work he did the other day which took 10 hours was:
Fit flexies for bath tap.
Cut hole for bath waste (which must have took ages with a spoon)
Cut hole for shower waste - I'll have to get a pic of that!! I'm going to have to through in some wood under the floor boards to strengthen them now.
Extend pipes into wall for second shower (pipes already laid - just extend and heighten. He did this but the plasterboardd won't sit flush until I fix it (or him / whoever).

That was as far as he got. The rest included:

Rework the pipes for the saniflo
Setup pipe work for the en suite hand basin (already there - just needs extending like teh shower)
Set the waste pipe from basin to shower to saniflo (this was the 'big' job, which requires most action.
Lay all my floor boards back, which he left up.

I reckon I could have cut those bath holes in approx 40mins.Fix a tap - surely that's dead easy if you have the tools!

if you want to see real bad work ..
have a look at this
http://npower-gas-install-photos.posterous.com/

all the pipe work is on show above and will not be hidden as yours will be .

Cheers - that is pretty bad. Think I need to spend a bit more time reading that.

perhaps he intends to clean stuff up after he's finished and checked for leaks.

Cheers, though I doubt it. A lot of the pipework will be set in teh wall / under floors. Once the en suite is set, I want the floor down on top. So there will be little chance of correcting leaks. He complains that he can't test it. Well he's the plumber he needs to suggest to me how we do it. I do know he tested the central heating with a hose pipe for leaks. So it is possible for him to do stuff like that.

the stuff under the bath can be left on show .on top of the floor boards ..as it will all be hidden in the end by the bath panel ..to pull every floor board up and do extra work will cost extra money ..and weeken joists ..

Yup. At least that is the case.

BTW ..has this been going on for several months ..as the pipes dont look bright and new anymore
all the best.markj

Yeah - first major fix was last year. Though the rest of the stuff has relied upon the bathroom stuff I bought. So it's a bit of a long process due to cash etc etc.

Thanks for the reply! :beer:

ormus

i also dont think its that bad. ive seen a lot worse from so called pros.
i hope youre not paying for the job on day rate?

macman

As ormus says, what does it matter if he's slow , you'll pay the same price. Better that way than him rushing it, surely?

27col

Not very elegant but, as long as the joints do not leak, then nothing to worry about. It is a lot of work to hide new pipework in a house that has been floored. Therefore it keeps cost down to keep it on the surface as much as possible. Rough cut holes don't matter as long as they are made good afterwards, or stay hidden. Generally, it does not look like the work of a confident plumber.

Canucklehead

Good evening: tbh...seen much worse and much better....a lot of mediocre work out there these days. Unfortunately the industry has so many 'tradespersons' who aren't as conscientious as others with more experience/confidence/the right tools/been house trained. Basically, not a 'considered' bit of work.

Remember...plumbing isn't a regulated trade and you take your chances.


Good luck with your project.

Canucklehead

Aquatronixjenny

Yes, the welds do look messy but maybe he thinks that as it will all be concealed he is playing on the safe side by using a bit of extra solder?

If the job was quotes (which it should have been considering the amount you need done) then I would just let him take his time, its his loss! But obviously pick up on the things you aren't happy with. Make sure you get a good workmanship guarantee, at least 6 months.

27col

Would you all stop calling them welds. They are soldered fittings, (not very pretty ones, either).

typeractive

Well thanks very much to you all. It's easy to pick apart someone's work (which don't get me wrong - I am not 100% happy with in terms of presentation), though I am pleased to see that my thoughts of him putting on a lot of solder might ensure a more secure fitting. My apologies for calling them welds - I just followed what my mate said!

In reply to some points:

i also dont think its that bad. ive seen a lot worse from so called pros.I hope youre not paying for the job on day rate?

Thanks. For the main part of the first fix it was a fixed price. (£2k). Then I have paid for some day rate work since. I'm going to have to work on the prices, and get them agreed for him finishing things. That's my fault.

A greivance I have is that the last day he worked which was apparently 10hours my mate (who was also there working) said to me he didn't work hard and he obviously didn't finish the list. I paid him £100 for this - which I think he was unhappy about. But if you look in my post and see what work he got done and the state it was in I think he was lucky to get paid the way I felt.

Not very elegant but, as long as the joints do not leak, then nothing to worry about. It is a lot of work to hide new pipework in a house that has been floored. Therefore it keeps cost down to keep it on the surface as much as possible. Rough cut holes don't matter as long as they are made good afterwards, or stay hidden. Generally, it does not look like the work of a confident plumber.

Thanks. The house is totally accessible in terms of floor boards etc. (I got him to adjust his pipes before I laid the new plywood floor in the bathroom - which obviously he had to cut though for the bath and shower wastes).

Make sure you get a good workmanship guarantee, at least 6 months.

I'll try. Basically if I continue to use him to finish it off then any leaks and errors, he'll be getting called straight back up.

He might not even want to come back himself. Judging by his lack of communication (he's not called to discuss the work he did or let me know when/if he's coming back) I'm not so sure. I've tidied up after him and relaid my floorboards that he messed up. Granted I have more time and care for this, but still.

Hmmm. I was probably expecting everyone to say "OH MY GOD that's shocking :eek: - get rid of him" lol. So I think I'm just gonna have to see how it goes?

aboard_epsilon

The only thing i would do on top of that job once its done, is add glass fibre ...tape or wedge it into positions that are near cables ..were heat can rise and heat up cables ..

and wedge it between and under pipes that may expand and rub against each other or cross over floor joists ..so making your system quieter when the sudden temperature change of different pipe runs become active ....so helping to get rid of bang bang bangs ..and tick tick ticks.

Also i don't know if this is the plumbers bible...just ideas that spring into my head ..the condensing boiler relies on returning water temperature to be considerably lower than that going out ......having a flow and return pipe running parallel with one another ..may cause return pipe to pick up heat off the flow pipe making it less efficient ...so try and insulate whatever you can on the return pipes..where they run parallel.

One £5 roll over loft insulation ..and a pile of 15mm insulting sleeves probably costing another £10 should help Rolls Royce it.

don't forget ..where ever you put new floor boards down ..screw them ..dont nail them ....then if they have to come up at a later date ..you ain't destroying them again .

use quality "SPAX" SCREWS ..THE HEADS ARE VERY HARD .you will have a job chewing them up, when removed years later.

all the best.markj