Plumbing for new bathroom

sillymum

Hello

To cut a long story short we have had 3 quotes to have our old bathroom removed and a new one installed. We are supplying the bath, shower, shower cubicle, toilet, wash basin, tiles, etc and also paying for the plasterer and tiler. A few pipes will need removing from one side of the room and installed in the other side. Also, the toilet, bath and washbasin need repositioning slightly.

We've had two quotes from plumbers using the traditional copper pipe, and they are both almost £2.500 We were completely shocked as we thought it would be about a third of that amount!

We have had a quote from another plumber tonight, though, who has been recommended to us, who uses Hep2O plastic pipes (excuse me using the wrong terminology by the way, this is all new to me!!). His quote is £500 which would obviously save us a fortune. But would it be a false economy? Does anyone know about this type of plumbing and whether it's reliable??

Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks

mpython

Hep2O is very, very fast to install. Plus there's no 'hot' works, its simply cut & burr to length, then snap fit joints. Its good as long as its installed properly - you need to use new joint fixings (even the tinest piece of grit in a joint will cut the seal and let water weap out) and ensure you have 'pushed home' all the joints properly.

I presume you'll still have metal taps? You'll also need to ensure all the taps or other metal fixings are earth bonded back to the original copper or main earth bonding in the house. This doesn't take long but can be overlooked by a DIYer with devasting results.

Are any of the quotes from registered plumbers?

Alan_M_2

The difference between a copper fit and a plastic fit is not £2000.

Without seeing the actual written quotes detailing the extent of the work it's difficult to say what's reasonable and what isn't, but on the face of it, £500 is very very cheap. I'd want a full run down on what was being done and what wasnt being done for that money and particularly what's included in the price.

BobProperty

mpython wrote:

.....I presume you'll still have metal taps? You'll also need to ensure all the taps or other metal fixings are earth bonded back to the original copper or main earth bonding in the house. This doesn't take long but can be overlooked by a DIYer with devasting results.

Are any of the quotes from registered plumbers?

No you don't. Could you explain how one isolated metal tap is going to get live?
Have a look at http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/WiringMatters/Documents/PreIssue14/1999_6_autumn_plastic_pipes_to_bond_or_not_to_bond.pdf

And please tell me the significance of the term "registered plumber". There is no definitive list of plumbers in this country, it isn't a title like Architect. A lot of the registration schemes aren't much more than paying a fee to someone so that you can say you are a member of a scheme.

Back to the OP:
Alan M is completely correct, there is no way that just using plastic pipes would save £2000. You are wanting pipework moved and a bath, shower, shower cubicle, washbasin and toilet installing. I think £500 is suspiciously cheap and you would be lucky to get someone to do that amount of work for the £800ish you were hoping for. Are you supplying all the materials? What will happen if the plumber says he can't finish the job without Part X? Will you pay him while he goes to get it? Will you pay him while he waits for you to go and get it?

mpython

Bobproperty

Sorry if I've upset you with my comments to Sillymum - that wasn't my intention.

A single tap, or a metal bath can become live though other poorly fitted electrical supply such as shaver sockets or light above or below the item in question. Also, a baton screwed into the wall to hold the bath could break into an underlying electrical wire (who knows what you'll find in an old property). It doesn't happen often but it can happen.

I accept what you say about the IEE, they seem to say you only need earth bonding on plastic pipe to a metal bath that's attached to the metal frame of a dwelling. However, last year I completed my NVQ plumbing and we were taught and assessed on bonding across any plastic pipe where there wasn't an exisiting earth bond, so baths & taps were included (maybe I should ask for my money back from the college?)

Plumbers can register with a variety of organisations, For instance: http://www.iphe.org.uk or whether they are corgi registered. There are also quite a few franchise firms, e.g. Plumblocal.

My question to Sillymum about registered plumbers was really a prompt to ask if the cheapest quote came from an ad in the local paper with only a mobile number (high risk), or was it a personal recomendation from a friend/ family member (much better), or a number out of the yellow pages - somewhere in between.

As an aside, there is a price estimating website, http://www.whatprice.co.uk/plumbing.html
though its obviously difficult to price any job without seeing exactly the layout of the location.

Apologies again if my attempts to be helpful have not been.

orainsear

The reason that metal fittings in bathroom require earthing is to ensure that they are all at the same electrical potential. A potential difference is, excuse the pun, *potentially* a very dangerous situation, and may lead to fault currents flowing between fittings (with you providing the route for the current). It really is best to ground everything and ensure it's all correctly bonded so everything is at the same potential.

As for the original post - I'm not familiar with how much plumbers charge - I do all my own work, however I'd ask some friends/neighbours for recommendations of plumbers who have done good work for them and get a few more quotes.

BobProperty

mpython wrote:

.....A single tap, or a metal bath can become live though other poorly fitted electrical supply such as shaver sockets or light above or below the item in question. Also, a baton screwed into the wall to hold the bath could break into an underlying electrical wire (who knows what you'll find in an old property). It doesn't happen often but it can happen....

You still haven't explained how that will cause a metal tap to become live. All you have quoted is a list of errors that can occur in a bathroom installation.

mpython wrote:

.... last year I completed my NVQ plumbing and we were taught and assessed on bonding across any plastic pipe where there wasn't an exisiting earth bond, so baths & taps were included (maybe I should ask for my money back from the college?)....

Would you care to re-read what you have written there please? "we were taught and assessed on bonding across any plastic pipe". I really hope you didn't mean that as otherwise I would suggest you do get your money back.

mpython wrote:

Plumbers can register with a variety of organisations, For instance: http://www.iphe.org.uk or whether they are corgi registered. There are also quite a few franchise firms, e.g. Plumblocal......

Which if you read my post is what I said. They can pay their money and can register with someone willing to take it. I am not a member of any such body as all I see them as is someone who will take my money and do very little in return. They may tell you it will help your business/career etc. but I see little evidence of it as far as customers are concerned.
There are "quite a few franchise firms", none of whom have a long term success record in plumbing.
http://money.guardian.co.uk/consumernews/story/0,14188,1640502,00.html
:eek:

handyman.

and what happens if the whole house is plastic (the pipes that is)

orainsear

handyman. wrote:

and what happens if the whole house is plastic (the pipes that is)

If they are all plastic you don't need to worry about earthing any of them. This is a much safer scenario than using solely copper pipes or a mixture of copper and plastic, and from an electrical safety point of view is really the way it should be done. You still have to provide adequate supplementary bonding for appliances though, e.g. electric shower to the consumer unit.

sillymum

Hello everyone

Thanks for all the replies, I appreciate it. We have decided to go with the cheaper plumber (I will be sure to check with him about the earth bonding!!). He was recommended to us by a friend who has used him for quite a lot of work and she spoke really highly of him. He also seemed really nice too!! The reason he can do it so cheaply is that he will be doing it as a foreigner in the evenings or weekends (we didn't ask him to do this, it's just what he does). He works for a big plumbing firm during the day. He was also the only plumber who took the time to look in the loft and under the floor to see the state of the pipes etc. And he is Corgi registered too, so that is reassuring.

I think that even if he does add a few extra costs onto the price we will still be saving a lot of money. As we've just moved and we have a lot of other expenses (house is in a state!) then every pound saved counts!

Thanks again for your valuable advice

mpython

BobProperty wrote:

You still haven't explained how that will cause a metal tap to become live. All you have quoted is a list of errors that can occur in a bathroom installation.

Err... its a bathroom, water conducts electricity....otherwise rocker switches would be allowed.

BobProperty wrote:

Would you care to re-read what you have written there please? "we were taught and assessed on bonding across any plastic pipe". I really hope you didn't mean that

Err... yes I do mean that - maybe this picture will help?

copper pipe plastic pipe copper pipe
=============================
| |
|__________________________|
earth bonding

BobProperty wrote:

as otherwise I would suggest you do get your money back.

Err.. my attempt at humour has apparantly misfired.... pretty sure City & Guilds aren't keen on refunds (sorry, another attempt at humour)

BobProperty wrote:

Which if you read my post is what I said. They can pay their money and can register with someone willing to take it. I am not a member of any such body as all I see them as is someone who will take my money and do very little in return. They may tell you it will help your business/career etc. but I see little evidence of it as far as customers are concerned.

Err... I wasn't justifying the organisations, just answering your original question about registered plumbers?