Beware! BidRivals and penny auction scams...

shaftingham

BE Warned, clever scam!
If any of you are in ANY doubt about this Bidrivals scam (I have only had experience with this 'auction' site but I guess others are similar) let me explain what I saw in 5 hours there!

Sorry for the long post but you should REALLY read it before ever using one of these 'auction' sites!

OK, I am on Quidco and see a cashback of £35 for buying £17.50 or more of 'bids' for joining Bidrivals. I check it out, and think OK I can't lose, so I join and pay £21 for 50 'bids' via Paypal.

I observe for a while; there is a link to 'live' auctions that are in process or shortly to begin. This link contains a page of thumbnails with item photos. At the top are the 'hook' items such as iPod, iPad and other electricals like a PS3. These auctions have been going on for hours. After them, are Amazon gift cards of £15 or £10 in value, £10 multistore giftcards (can be redeemed in Boots, WH Smiths etc,) and also PACKETS OF 30/50/100/200 'BIDS'.....

Right, let me explain that to buy 'bids' the price is 42p each, so as you can see I got 50 for my £21. Each bid you use increases the price (which always starts at 1p or 1 of your local currency unit) by 1p and adds 15 seconds to the auction.

Secondly, you can buy-it-now on any item you bid on, except gift cards** and the price is reduced if you lose the auction by up to 100% of the value of bids you spent if losing the auction (which you WILL but I'll come to that!)

Example: Subscription to National Geographic £39.95. Starts at 1p, I bid 20 times, either manually or using 'BidAgent' which you can program to bid automatically for you - in this case I could have set it up to bid 20 times before I either quit or 'won' (hahaha)

OK, surprise surprise I 'lose' the auction, and I have thus spent £8.40 on my 20 bids. I either lose this or use the buy-it-now and get 100% of my bid value back, thus getting the subscription for £31.55 plus £2 'costs' £33.55.....

Fine, you think. NO! and I'll explain why. On the 'hook' items such as a 64GB 3G iPad you can ONLY redeem 25% OF YOUR LOSING BID VALUE and when I explain how much it costs to 'win' such an item you'll see what a fiendishly clever money creaming operation it is!

The retail price of this iPad is £699 approx. They have it at £729 for buy-it-now. After 5 hours of observing, the iPad had reached £68.76 at their 'acution'. At 42p a bid, starting at 1p, this is 6875 bids thus the iPad has raised revenue to them of £2887.50 so far (I fell asleep at this point.) *REMEMBER IF YOU BID AND LOST ON THIS YOU WOULD ONLY GET A MAXIMUM OF 25% OFF THE £729 IF YOU B-I-N SO IF YOU WERE HOOKED IN AND SAY MADE 1000 BIDS (£420) you would only get £181 OFF THE PRICE ON B-I-N THUS PAYING £958 PLUS TRANSIT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Therefore the 'desirable' items which attract thousands in bids have little or no opportunity for you to get any money back. You either lose your bids for nowt, or end up paying over-the-odds for something you may not want, overpriced, just to avoid the feeling of loss....:mad::mad:

So, you realize quite fast, with a sinking feeling, that your money has been wasted. So, you try to escape by buying a gift card say, for £10. You think that even if it costs 13 bids, about £10, at least you get your money back! Think again.......YOU DON'T GET BUY-IT-NOW ON GIFT CARDS NOR DO YOU GET CASHBACK FOR YOUR LOSING BIDS TO OFFSET AGAINST THE GIFTCARD PRICE IF YOU DON'T WIN IT!!!! So you bid......

(This is where it all gets highly suspicious.)

You get the page of thumbnails 'live auctions' up, seeing what price all the items are on, as they all have little clocks on with the current live bids and prices. You see that an Amazon £10 gift card has just sold for 3p!! Brilliant, you think, 42 or 84p can get me a £10 gift card. So you click on the next Amazon giftcard due to start auction in 30 seconds say.

Sure enough, it's on 1p. Amazingly, now you've got the window open, 2 'bidders' on BidAgent suddenly materialize. You don't bid, but watch in disbelief as a bidding war starts between the 2, and the price rises to 71p (70 bids x 42p = £29.40) so each 'genuine' (sorry, shill bidder) has suddenly decided to pay at least £14-15 for a £10 giftcard.........

Still not wanting to believe you've been scammed, you work this out for yourself and when it says 'going once, going twice' you put in a manual bid thinking in no way would the 'bidders' want to spend more than the item is worth. GUESS WHAT! You will be outbid, and suddenly one of the 'bidAgent' bidders will drop out and you'll find yourself bidding against the other one. And you will NOT win the item for a few bids, say 10 bids = £4.20 - the other 'bidder' will go and go until you too spend far more than the card is worth or run out of bids. Then, even if you DID 'win' it there is £2 to post it to you..... within 21 days.

Last resort, you look for a low value item (say 20-30 pounds) which has 100% redeemable bids against the B-I-N price if you lose the auction. ANYTHING to get my cash back! But, these auctions are few and far between, and the item is usually tat or very overpriced. Just write your losses off and get out!

IN CONCLUSION:

*Items are overpriced.
*There is clearly shill bidding.
*There is no buy-it-now on any items that can give you a break- even 'get out' like gift cards.
*The software is clearly aware when you OPEN an item and watch it: the 3p final price items always occur on the thumbnails..
*It is simply a way of the site buying an item for x and selling it from 2-10 times x

The sites are based abroad, this one in Malta. I don't believe they would be allowed here, as they are basically online 'fly auctions' which are illegal in the UK. It is like a gambling site without a licence - stake your cash for a slim-zero chance of gaining value on it. Will you be the 'lucky' bidder allowed to 'win' an item under cost? I don't think so! If a reputable site like eBay saw 'bidding' patterns like I saw the bidders' account would be suspended in minutes.

AVOID!!!!!

kurgon

But if you start off getting £35 for £17.50 worth of bids can you not just write off the bids and be happy with the £17.50 profit?

I see that overall the site is a con but as a one off surely it's still a wineer, as long as thy pay up on quidco?

shaftingham

Indeed, but I seriously doubt I'll ever see it.
Here's what Quidco's link to BR says:

Bidrivals' exciting online auctions offer premium products at a fraction of the retail cost! We can afford to sell products at such prices since our users pay a small amount (£0.50) to place a bid. Every time you place a bid, the price is r...

£35 cashback
£35 for genuine new customers who purchase a bidpack of a minimum deposit of £17.50

What exactly is a 'genuine' new customer? One that spends a fortune before realizing the scam, or like me who bolts and rund for little loss?? As of yet my Quidco hasn't shown BR transaction up.

shaftingham

Here is a copy of my chat when I complained....: (I'm 'MUG' !!)

Please wait for a site operator to respond.
You are now chatting with 'Maeshelle'
Maeshelle: Hi! Welcome to BidRivals, how can I help you today?
Mug: If this site independently verified? IE IP's of ALL bidders are checked to ensure none are bot bids?
Maeshelle: Hi
Maeshelle: Yes
Maeshelle: Correct
Maeshelle: It was justified on our Fair Auction guarantee
Maeshelle: Is there anything else I may help you with today?
MUG: I'm just puzzled as to why 2 bidders on automatic would set up their bidding so the total of their bids is twice what the price of the product is, ie the vouchers/ On the gift vouchers you can't use your bids to buy-it-now, so who would set up to sepnd £18/19 on a £10 voucher??? Over and over again?
Maeshelle: Are you referring to Bid agents?
MUG: yes
Maeshelle: Please take note that, BidAgent monitors your bid when you cannot be on line, or when you would like to have bids placed automatically for you.
Maeshelle: The bidders simply decide how many bids they want to place and the maximum price they are are willing to pay.
MUG: I know, but WHO would possibly set a maximum number of bids whose value is 2x the cost of the item???
Maeshelle: I do not know. Basically we do not have access as per how many bids or maximum amount a bidder have set on his or her bid agent
Maeshelle: So we cannot assume that he set the value 2x of the cost of the item.
Maeshelle: BidAgent always waits until no more than four seconds remain before the auction closes. BidAgent will automatically stop bidding when the current bid passes your maximum price.
Maeshelle: BidAgent will only deduct bids from your account when you do not have the highest bid and never beyond your maximum price.
MUG: So, you think it's normal for people to DELIBERATELY decide to bid 2x what the product is priced at?
Maeshelle: The Bidagents has a fixed system and it wont bid more than what it is set.
Maeshelle: It always depends on the bidder
Maeshelle: If he wants that yes that is possible
Maeshelle: It's normal
Maeshelle: It's there money and their decision
MUG: Yes, but please answer my point, WHY set a maximum bid total of 2x the product price?
Maeshelle: As mentioned , we do not know. That matter is decided by the bidder
Maeshelle: Not us
Maeshelle: It's upto them
Maeshelle: Winning depends on bidder's strategies
MUG: I've watched numerous auctions on here, and it's obvious what is happening. I've just seen the same 3 bidders each buy a total of £20 of gift cards for £35+
Maeshelle: Basically we could not influence that
MUG: LOL
MUG: Is your fair auction guarantee INDEPENDENTLY checked? Not by yourselves?
MUG: IE Are the IP's and ID details of the 'bidders' subject to independent verification and checks?
Maeshelle: Yes it is being check. It depends on the bidder how much they would like to spend on an item.
MUG: I didn't ask that - I asked if it's being INDEPENDENTLY checked by a third=party, say like gambling sites are?
MUG: If so by whom?
Maeshelle: Our system is well monitored by our IT department and those bidders who are attempting or doing fraud will be automatically be removed and actions will be done accordingly
Maeshelle: (URL FOR THEIR OWN 'GUARANTEE)
MUG: So you don't have outside verification then?
Maeshelle: No we do not have it. We have our own IT department that monitors the auction 24/7
MUG: And are they responsible for the shill bidding then?
Maeshelle: With our Fair Auction Guarantee you can be sure that we do not use any systems that automatically bid on our auctions (Autobids). We also guarantee that no employees of Bidrivals or their family members are allowed to bid on the auctions.
Maeshelle: The Fair Auction Guarantee is our way of showing our users what we stand for, and is an important part of our core values. Bidrivals auctions are for the benefit of our members, and only members can bid on our products.

MUG: We are pressing here in the UK to have sites like yours investigated having to pass stringent checks before being allowed to receive payments from the UK, like gaming sites.
Maeshelle: Shill bidding is a violation of the law and we do not tolerate it.
MUG: What law is that then?
Maeshelle: We are not a gaming /gambling site. What you are saying does not apply to us.
Maeshelle: Basically when do you shill bidding that is against the law because that is fraud
Maeshelle: Bidrivals is fully aware of that
MUG: So, if speaking before a county court, and if you were asked to provide proof of EVERY 'won' auctions' goods (for the last year) being delivered to a bidder who exists in person, you could?
Maeshelle: Those proved to be involved in collusion, or suspected to be involved in collusion, will be issued with a warning for the first offence. Should, however, any items already have been won via means of colluding or any other fraudulent manner, BidRivals has the right to suspend a user with immediate effect
Maeshelle: Please check our legal statement
Maeshelle: (URL FOR 'LEGAL STATEMENT PROVIDED)
MUG: SO, in keeping with distance selling regulations, which cover auction sites, you give unhappy customers a refund?
Maeshelle: The products are all shipped from local (sometimes, international)reputable suppliers.
Maeshelle: Customer will have what is being ordered by them. We do not have satisfaction guarantee
Maeshelle: But if they wont be able to receive the items or items have deffects upon delivery, we will address the issue case to case basis
Maeshelle: We will provide the best resolution of course
Maeshelle: Is there anything else I may help you with today?
MUG: I didn't mention the shipping of PRIZES, I meant the 'bids' you sell and after a short period when customers like myself (who aren't mentally incapacitated enough to spend £20 bidding for a £10 item) realize we've been the victim of a very clever scam, you refund their payments?
Maeshelle: All placed bids are non refundable
Maeshelle: We can only refund regular unused bids
MUG: So you'll refund my 40 unused bids without quibble?|
Maeshelle: Let me correct it, its regular unused bids. Free bids are not included.We absolutely give refund to Regular and Unused bids
Maeshelle: Is there anything else I may help you with today?
MUG: I don't have any 'free' bids but 40 I have paid for! How do I get refunded?
Maeshelle: Okay
Maeshelle: Can I have your email address and username
MUG: xxxx AT xxx.com
MUG: xxxxxxx is username
Maeshelle: Okay. I will forward your request to the billing department so they can process refund. We will get back to you at the earliest business days for confirmation
Your Issue ID for this chat is LTxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
Maeshelle: Keep this ticket ID for your request
Maeshelle: LTK145030313850X
Maeshelle: Is there anything else I may help you with today?
MUG: How long does this refund process take?
MUG: Or do I complain via Paypal?
Maeshelle: There is no specific time frame
Maeshelle: I do not have the information here as well
Maeshelle: So you would need to wait for the email.
Maeshelle: During business days
MUG: So you do have a refund process?
Maeshelle: Yes we do have
MUG: Refunded to paypal then?
Maeshelle: It's the billing department who will handle this
Maeshelle: What payment option did you use?
MUG: paypal funnily enough
Maeshelle: Okay
Maeshelle: It will be paypal
Maeshelle: We base it on the payment method you used
Maeshelle: Is there anything else I may help you with today?
MUG: What do I do now, just leave the 40 bids in my account and wait?
Maeshelle: Yes. You need to wait for their email. I could not do it on their behalf
Maeshelle: Our scope is limited and management is not available on weekends
MUG: OK, I'll see how this refund goes before we make further investigations.
MUG: Thank You.
Maeshelle: Okay
Maeshelle: Most welcome
Maeshelle: Thank you for choosing Bidrivals. If you have any other questions, feel free to open a chat or e-mail us!
Maeshelle: We request that you take a moment to fill out a short survey that opens when you close this chat window by clicking on the 'close' button above.
Maeshelle: Bye
Chat session has been terminated by the site operator.

shaftingham

I've been investigating these penny 'auction' sites and in many countries they come under lottery/gambling jurisdiction.

Because that's exactly what they are -- gambling sites. Only you can never cash out, merely lose or eventually get overpriced goods which you don't really want.

At least on a proper casino site you get a few winning stakes before eventually losing, and may actually gain. On penny 'auction' sites it simply goes (42p or 50p a go) LOSE-LOSE-LOSE-LOSE-LOSE-LOSE-LOSE-LOSE-LOSE-LOSE-LOSE-LOSE ETC.

The 'cash' you losses in by part exchanging them for overpriced tat (if allowed on the relevant item.)

Further to my above chat thread, I decided I wouldn't get refunded, so bid on a gift card. MY 'number' hadn't come up, because I had 28 bids at 42p left. The card was at 56p when I came in against 2 'BidAgent' auto-bidders. Thus the site had already got about £23 for the £15 card.
So, I bid just on 'going twice' literally a second before the item would have 'sold'. Needless to say, the BidAgent A came in again, then I bid and BidAgent A bid again, and guess what? BidAgent B dropped out immediately. As soon as this happened, I realized I was up against 'house' bidders because I had literally replaced one of them.

So, putting my remaining 25 bids on BidAgent auto-bidding, I watched the inevitable as I was continually outbid. I could predict what the outcome would be and was laughing to myself. BidAgent A (who had been going right from 1p at the start) kept overbidding. By now it was on 100p (thus £42 had been 'spent' on this £15 voucher £21 by BidAgent A alone.)

So, I watched my last bid go in at 101p and waited for the inevitable. BidAgent A overbid me, and I was out of bids. The clock counted down, then 'going once' 'going twice' and suddenly (as would be expected) a new bidder who was watching decided to try his luck and pick it up for 42p - he was then overbid by BidAgent A, never bid again and BidAgent A 'won' the 'auction'.......:T:T

OK, for those of you who haven't asked yourself the obvious question, how come this new chance bid came in EXACTLY after I had lost my last remaining bid and fell out of the 'auction'? It stinks to high heaven and I don't like co-incidences.

SO, a £15 voucher had raised revenue of 104 x 42p=£43.68. The winning bidder had allegedly paid half of this £21.84 for a £15 voucher.

Now, excuse me, I had lost £10-ish bidding, what retard spends £21.84 (plus £1.00 postage) for a £15 voucher??:rotfl::rotfl:

It's obvious that while the site claims there are no shill bids or bots, that there are paid 'remote' bidders given free bidding credit to get the auction into profit. This site is 'licensed' in Malta and is not independently audited, as their chat says.

Another site, Miss Penny Bids is licensed in Curacao and has almsot excactly the same set-up but claims that the licensing authority there can actually ask for the destination of ALL prizes (because they are prizes not purchases) and audit them.

It's about time these sites came under ECOGRA or UK Gambling Commission jurisdiction if they are to be allowed to take UK customers.

mobile48

shaftingham wrote: »

Now, excuse me, I had lost £10-ish bidding, what retard spends £21.84 (plus £1.00 postage) for a £15 voucher??:rotfl::rotfl:

In a previous post you stated there was no way to cash out from these sites. To me paying £21.84 (plus £1.00 postage) for a £15 voucher would not be that odd if it was the only way to cash out.

Additionally to above you can also look at it from a gambling viewpoint and is it like saying what retard spends £20 to win a £15 jackpot but lots of people do on fruit machines?

EDIT: In first case bidder is Cutting their loses; in second bidder is Chasing their loses.

shaftingham

It's not exactly cashing out, is it? If you read again what I stated, the man (although I believe he was a 'house' bidder and never actually paid the £21.84) would been down by £6.84 + £1.00 and also (sorry forgot this) would have had to pay the £1.04 he 'won' the item for. Or, if you prefer him to be genuine, then he was 'on tilt' being aware that he would LOSE even if he 'WON' the item but carried on regardless.

On the second point you made, "what retard spends £20 to win a £15 jackpot on a fruit machine" I agree totally - the analogy is fair and is basically what the 'winner' of the voucher has done. Which means ipso facto you agree with me that these are in fact lottery/gambling sites.

Only on a gambling site you know the 'house edge' and game BEFORE you play. Most gambling sites have a house edge of 6- 0.2% depending on which game, and these are generally displayed.

Only the VTOS (National Lottery) Voluntary Tax On Stupidity at 50% payout has bad odds openly displayed - I doubt this site and those similar would like to declare their 'payout' as it's questionable it even achieves VTOS level!

Strapped

shaftingham wrote: »

Only the VTOS (National Lottery) Voluntary Tax On Stupidity at 50% payout has bad odds openly displayed - I doubt this site and those similar would like to declare their 'payout' as it's questionable it even achieves VTOS level!

Sorry, I do applaud you for sharing your experiences, but this last bit did make me think...what does that make you then?

shaftingham

Strapped wrote: »

Sorry, I do applaud you for sharing your experiences, but this last bit did make me think...what does that make you then?

Take the 'S' off of your tone of your post and you get 'mug' - which is exactly what I called myself on the 'chat ticket' post my friend!

Obviously someone like yourself who has never bought a lottery ticket, got into debt, played a fruit machine or backed a losing horse is immune from these sites. I posted it for those who want to know what they do and how they operate BEFORE they lose their cash. I only wish I had read similar first.

Which brings me back to auditing point I made. As they are under lottery rules in many countries (but not here) they could be made to show the %age return of items acquired for auctions and losing bids offset against buy-it-now discounts (i.e. their loss balance) against total bid revenues. This transparency would allow potential bidders to know the average long term return on their cash, which I would be very surprised if exceeding 50%. They also don't physically hold the item you 'win' like most eBayers but simply order it (eventually) out of their revenues.

Low-overhead and hyper-profit enterprise, and not regulated.

For your undoubted satisfaction. my £21 wasted has not yet been alleviated at Quidco by the promised £35 either, in the regulation 3-day tracking period.

So stick a CAPITAL 'S' in front of my name!:T:T

soolin

I know this is a topic very close to your heart and I can see you feel very passionately about it shaftingham. However you may want to let it drop before you let it take over your life.

No one here would use the site, we have warnings all over the boards about similar sites, they are there if you look for them. The fact that you used them without checking about them beforehand shows that it doesn't matter how pasisonate you are trying to warn people there will always be those who just go ahead.

If you went ahead despite multiple warnings on sites like this and others, then nothing you can do will stop others goign ahead as well.

shaftingham

Maybe, but if you actually enter 'Bidrivals' in the search facility here, there is only one small thread (aside from the one I just started) showing. Hopefully now it will be more apparent to those in doubt; my aim to help others will thus be achieved.