Air trapped in system (advice please)

ian-d

We had problems with water rising to the top when flushing the toilet, which would then return to normal levels within seconds. Having explored further, I noticed water was remaining in the back of the shower, so had assumed a blockage further down. The noise of "glugging/gurgling" could be heard from the toilet when using the washing machine downstairs too.

However, when the plumber came out, he confirmed it was actually a problem with air pressure, and used an example where by he removed the plug from the shower and flushed the toilet, no water came up and it was working fine. He said that there was no blockage (didn't check) and that water should remain in the shower basin (below the part you stand on).

He checked some kind of air pipe in our loft and assumed the auto vent (which stops the smells leaking out!) wasn't working, so would get a replacement part. When that arrived, he removed the old one and tested the toilet and it worked fine, but when adding the new part, the same problem arose again.

The only assumption he could come to was that not enough air was getting into the system (think that is right) and the only solution will be to have a hole drilled through our outer wall from the loft, with some kind of air pipe installed. He said that something within the air system a number of houses share (we are detached!) must have changed which is why the problem appeared so unexpectadily.

What I cannot get my head around is why this is only affected the en-suite toilet/shower and not the toilet/sink/bath in the other bathroom, or toilet/sink in the downstairs cloakroom, or the kitchen.

Does what he has said make sense, or should I get someone else in to check? I'm just concerned that drilling a hole through the outer wall is an extreme measure to "force" more air in compared with doing the same through the existing system in the loft.

Hope someone can help.

C_Mababejive

It depends how complex your waste system is..!

Air movements,or the lack of it,in drainage systems can indeed cause issues and if there are shared drains then this can be difficult to trace.


On the face of it,it should be simple. your in a detached house with non of the complexities that you might see in blocks of flats for example..
I'd stop,take stock ,reassess.

ask yourself this..if it worked ok before,when did it stop working and whats changed?

grimsalve

Have you asked any of your neighbours to see if they're having similar problems?

ian-d

Of the few neighbours we actually have, none are having problems or have carried out any plumbing works, so cannot understand where the issue has come from; also cannot seem to find out which house as an open vent to the outside, which I presume one must have. Would it be the case that this air circulation issue would only cause problems for the en-suite and not the other bathrooms, seems strange?

C_Mababejive

If the soil stack isnt visible either up the side of the house or exiting via the roof,then it might terminate inside and be fitted with an air admittance valve (google)

Canucklehead

Hi.

I would assume this is a relatively new build house?

As the problem is specific to the ensuite then I would say you have a build up of hair and slime in the waste pipework AKA 'gunk' not a problem with drains in general.

You need to plunge/jet or add acid type cleaner to the wastes.

I can only assume that the builder/plumbing contractor was too cheap to actually run the soil to outside air instead of fitting an AAV in the roof space.
Your plumber's comment suggests it's possible to do this.

Lift an inspection cover, if you can find one outside, and confirm the drains are clear.


GSR

ian-d

Thanks for the replies so far, I'm really at a loss as to whether to have a plumber drill a hole in the outer wall and run a valve from outside; surely an AAV inside the roof space would be sufficient for the home, as it has been for 4 years since built...is it really possible that presumably sharing the system with other detached houses would result in problems for my en-suite only and no other rooms nor neighbours rooms? Just to add, the washing machine (directly downstairs from en-suite) also causes the gurgling sound from the toilet upstairs when in use; could the washing machine be at all to blame?

The plumber said that a blockage wouldn't be the problem, and that water in the shower tray below where you stand should be there, though I'm not convinenced, surely water shouldn't remain to go stagnant?

Help!

explumber

an option to consider, anti syphon waste traps. they come in all shapes and sizes. they also make an anti syphon washing machine standpipe

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General

The Silentrap by drawing air through the valve neutralises syphonic pressure before it reaches the seal of the trap and therefore provides the equivalent of a ventilated system without the installation of costly and unsightly ventilation pipes.
The Silentrap has been most rigorously tested and will not unseal even under the most abnormal conditions. The Silentrap should continue to be effective irrespective of the distance between the Appliance and the Soil Pipe.
Operation

Whenever syphonic conditions develop, the negative pressure causes the valve to rise thereby allowing air to be drawn into the discharge pipe thus neutralising the pressure. Simultaneously, with the cessation of the syphonic action, the valve closes to make the Silentrap air and watertight.
Quieter Discharge

During discharge, air is drawn into the system through the valve and not through the water seal thereby eliminating any gurgling noise and ensuring a quieter flow.
The above illustrations show that the Silentrap valve is available on various traps.
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Anti Syphon Traps (Silentraps)

By drawing air through the valve, the Silentrap neutralises syphonic pressure before it reaches the seal of the Trap and therefore provides the equivalent of a ventilated system without the installation of costly and unsightly ventilation pipes.
The Silentrap has been most rigorously tested and will not unseal even under the most abnormal conditions
The Silentrap should continue to be effective irrespective of the distance between the Appliance and the Soil Pipe.
Whenever syphonic conditions develop, the negative pressure causes the Valve to rise, allowing air to be dranw into the discharge pipe. The pressure is thereby neutralised before it can have any effect on the water seal within the Trap. On cessation of the syphonic action, the Valve closes, making the Silentrap air and watertight.

grimsalve

ian-d wrote: »

water in the shower tray below where you stand should be there, though I'm not convinenced, surely water shouldn't remain to go stagnant?

Do you mean water in the pipe or water in the tray? The water should drain away to below the tray level but not completely (it creates a "trap" or "block" so you don't get smells coming back up from the sewage pipe below). If there's always water in the shower tray so you're standing in a puddle then that's a bit of a problem - possibly partially blocked or one end of the pipe has dropped so it's not draining properly?

iveco_man

To test if it is the durgo air vent take it of and use without it for couple of hours and see if problem clears, if not it doesnt require an external vent through the wall.It may smell for the little time the durgo is of but atleast you will know...

ian-d

grimsalve wrote: »

Do you mean water in the pipe or water in the tray? The water should drain away to below the tray level but not completely (it creates a "trap" or "block" so you don't get smells coming back up from the sewage pipe below). If there's always water in the shower tray so you're standing in a puddle then that's a bit of a problem - possibly partially blocked or one end of the pipe has dropped so it's not draining properly?

Sorry, the water drains away from the shower slowly, but doesn't leave any water where you stand, it has a tray under the plug hole where water remains, but I guess it is the same as the toilet in that respect, as if you run the shower, the level does't rise.

iveco_man wrote: »

To test if it is the durgo air vent take it of and use without it for couple of hours and see if problem clears, if not it doesnt require an external vent through the wall.It may smell for the little time the durgo is of but atleast you will know...

We had to cut off the air valve (as the plumber thought it might not be opening) and when testing without any value on, the toilet flushed ok and there appeared to be no problems. As soon as the new value was put on, problem was back! I just don't understand why it only affects the en-suite, and I don't want to go to the expense and unsightlyness of an outside vent if that doesn't resolve the problem.