The dreaded Council Tax

Ted_Bloke

seven-day-weekend wrote:

OK....if we are going to have a discussion...

Yes, the Council Tax is worrying for a lot of people and I know I'm going to get flamed here but I actually thought the principal of Poll Tax was fairer. (Notice I say the principal, not the way it was administered). I think it is fair that everyone should pay something as we all get the services. I don't think everyone should pay the same. (ideally, everyone should, but you have to take affordability into it). I don't agree with the local income tax idea as some people don't earn anything and they will end up not being liable to pay anything, and the ones that do earn will not get any better services. I certainly don't think it should be based on the value of your house.

Or....come to live in southern Spain. My council tax here is 80 euros A YEAR. It is £800 a year for my house in the UK.

Quite right, the principle of poll tax was fairer - all beneficiaries pay who can pay for them pay for services - and quite right youwill be flamed.
Local income tax cr@ppiest idea, I have to pay extra for privilege of living in area with needy ppl? (who vote for me to pay still more) :mad: + probly schools there cr@p and rubbish collection rubbish - result long term encourages I move out and needy people even needier, handwringing articles in paper about ghetto-isation, polarisation segregation of society.

spanner200

margaretclare wrote:

You make this reply very personal to me. Re interest-paying accounts - mine is with the Yorkshire Building Society, it's their E-ISA and it's paying 5.15% even though the actual amount in there is way way short of the £16,000 you mentioned. In fact, neither DH nor I have all that much in the way of savings - what we have is a decent income which means we can't really avoid saving - DH saves £200 every 4 weeks when the next 4-weekly SRP/SERPS payment arrives, which will be tomorrow for him and Monday for me. He's been as surprised by this as anyone!



Well, you put the ball into my court, and even though I've just listened to a very interesting philosophical discussion on Radio 4 'In Our Time' about altruism, I have no easy answers.

Those who went to jail for their beliefs, the most recent case was of a former soldier a week or two ago, I have the greatest respect for. But it has not done a darned bit of good, except for the publicity. Someone stepped in and paid the outstanding amount, which wasn't what was intended. There was a lot of play on the age of the person, and if I was to go to jail for what I believe in, I wouldn't want the media to seize on 'this 71-year old grandmother with replaced hips etc etc' - although they would, and it would anger me because I am a lot of other things besides being a 71-year old grandmother!

Where do I see myself in all this? Well, I see myself as being totally misled and betrayed by the people I helped to put into power in 1997, but council tax is only one part of the picture. I see myself as being completely un-listened to on any of the issues I regard as important. Before the 2001 general election I took part in publicity for AgeConcern and my part in the video film that was made then focused on the injustice of age discrimination in the workplace. Nothing changed as a result of my participation. I knew even as I did it, that the date planned for this discrimination to be outlawed would be too late for me. A lot of people didn't agree with me at the time - they wanted to retire, and in fact, a lot of people still expect to retire on a good income at 60, an income which has to last them for another 20 or 30 years according to present life expectancy figures.

At the time of the 2005 election DH and I were interviewed for the 'Observer' and we were described as the 'green pensioners'. Our political views were only sought insofar as we were seen as being 'pensioners' and therefore we were expected to talk about what was seen as 'only' of interest to pensioners i.e. state pensions, means-tested benefits and the like. Much of what we said was ignored.

Where do I stand in all this? I dislike what is happening in our country today. I dislike the recent announcement that half a million people immigrated here in the last year that figures are available. I dislike the cosy words of the news-reader, that a number also left, for countries like Australia, France and Spain. There was no analysis of just who has arrived and who has left, although a huge number have immigrated here from Eastern Europe, but also from countries like Pakistan and African countries. Someone once said, many years ago now, that he saw the insanity of a nation 'heaping up its own funeral pyre'. He was scorned and his words are still sneered at. But when one thinks of just who has come here as opposed to just who has left, those who arrive having the tradition of a high birth-rate, those leaving either older people like seven-day-weekend in Spain, or young families going to Australia for a better life, I'll tell you where I stand in all this. I fear for the future of my country, that's where. Sure, I don't like paying £99 a month now for council tax as opposed to £65 only a couple of years ago. I don't like paying a lot more for gas supply either, and tossing us £200 once a year - like throwing a bone to a dog - doesn't make me happy about it, because we have squandered our rich resources and now we are beholden to countries like Russia for our gas supplies. We don't make a thing any more. Even an industry like BAE has been dependent for the last 20 years on contracts to Saudi Arabia, and who are they going to bomb, one must ask? We are beholden to oppressive regimes.

To come back to what I said a few pages back, I don't like the idea that my country is deemed no longer to exist, that the man who is thought of as Prime-Minister-in-waiting speaks of 'Scotland, Wales and the English regions. I have pointed out that one of the things we're paying for in council tax is the regional assemblies which have been set up without the will of the people and without most people even knowing about it. People's heads are focused on irrelevancies such as 'can't wait to get the Christmas decorations up', the latest TV reality show, spend-spend-spend, and similar. Take for instance this: http://www.englishdemocrats.org.uk/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1164275757&archive=&start_from=&ucat=3,4&)

I watched the discussion on the late news after I got back from college last night, and the focus was all on people loading up their car boot or their van with cheap booze and fags, as though that was the only point at issue. The link above shows that there's a lot more to it than that. DH and I have crossed the Channel many times in the last few years and have never bought a boot-full of booze and fags! There are even cross-Channel 'cruises' you can go on where you don't set foot on land and still come back with all those cheap goodies, if that's what you want.

I don't like the fact that my country, whose geographical borders existed for centuries and were thought worth defending, are melting away. This was NOT what I voted for way back in 1971 when I voted to 'stay in' the then Common Market, and my late husband was right when he voted against. We could never have envisaged what has happened since. I thought that anything which prevented another devastating European war would be a good thing. It never occurred to us that half a million members of the 'new' European states would immigrate here, to a small island, within one year. Nor that those we had welcomed, and given shelter to, would have children who would hate us and our way of life so much that they would cause mayhem and bloodshed on the London transport network, that they are still here, now demanding their own distinctive costumes as a right and our children should visit their places of worship as part of normal education.

All this is what we are paying for, and no, I don't like what is happening.



In our case the likelihood is that they would issue the summons against DH because in certain bureaucratic quarters he is still seen in the old-fashioned way as 'head of the household'. And he wouldn't go to jail for council tax non-payment. There might be things he would go to jail for, but not that.



Since the last general election, and the one before that, I've done a lot of thinking and reading, and I've become an English nationalist. I thought I was a 'lefty-liberal' but I don't think, at bottom, that I ever was. We are trying to achieve an English Parliament and I'm going to a meeting in London this Saturday. It's many years since I took a train and tube into central London, I'm a bit scared of it, and no, a bus pass wouldn't help with the fare which costs £15. It's time I met with like-minded people. The council tax is only a part of it.

I didn't mean to imply, jennifernil, that there is anything wrong with your continuing to live in your individually-designed house for as long as you wish. In fact, that's probably the best solution for everybody - to have a house which is designed and built to their own wishes/needs/requirements. I am just saying that for many people - and I've seen some - they leave it too late, they would have been better to move to somewhere smaller and more convenient and could therefore have freed up money. I am all for personal choice. Having our little car is a choice for DH and me, and yes, it costs money even if it never turns a wheel, but the convenience is worth it at present. There may come a time when things are different, and in that case, what the car costs us now could buy us an awful lotta taxi-rides!

Another quote is about the fact that a frog doesn't notice it if you put him into water of which he's used to the temperature, then slowly raise to boilng-point. Apparently you can boil a frog to death and he won't notice. I've read that we are like those frogs.

Well, you did ask....

Margaret

I agree with you entirely- I'm only 26 and left university only last year but can see clearly how the current trend in society is likely to only get worse- in fact I have already started thinking about emigrating in the future. I know its unrealistic to presume that the grass will be greener- but I live in hope

margaretclare

spanner200 wrote:

I agree with you entirely- I'm only 26 and left university only last year but can see clearly how the current trend in society is likely to only get worse- in fact I have already started thinking about emigrating in the future. I know its unrealistic to presume that the grass will be greener- but I live in hope

Don't emigrate. We need you. My generation won't be around then. Where will England be if all the best people leave?

On Saturday, in spite of age and disabilities, I made it into central London to the annual meeting of the Campaign for an English Parliament.
http://www.thecep.org.uk/

Quote from the Anglo-Saxon poem 'The Battle of Maldon': 'Our courage must grow as our strength fails. May he grieve for ever who flees this fight'.

Margaret

andyrules

should never have voted to 'stay in' the Common Market back in the 1970s, but then, who would have guessed that even if we voted to be part of an economic community for reasons of trade and prosperity, that our very existence as a country would be threatened?

And why are we never told about these things - how can we be said to live in a 'democracy'?

I can only think that the only way forward is to support any of the alternative political parties who state unequivocally on their manifesto - withdraw from Europe. These changes have crept up on us without our knowledge and consent. I think that we should make as many people as possible aware, because I'm certain that few are aware at present, although obviously many are concerned about 'the dreaded council tax' - now you know why it's 'dreaded'.

Margaret, can you let us know if you get a reply? I, like many I suspect, had no idea this was going on. Thank you for bringing it to light, we all need to more aware of what is happening under our noses.

margaretclare

andyrules wrote:

Margaret, can you let us know if you get a reply? I, like many I suspect, had no idea this was going on. Thank you for bringing it to light, we all need to more aware of what is happening under our noses.

Hi

Well, it was a very interesting and informative meeting on Saturday at the Annual Meeting of the Campaign for an English Parliament. And amazingly enough, a poll in the 'Daily Telegraph' on Sunday morning showed that the tide is running our way. So many people are thinking the same way - we are NOT being listened to, decisions which affect us are taken without a 'by-your-leave'. Our local councillor was round this morning, I bent his ear about the English Parliament (which is not really in his sphere!) and in return he made me aware of this: http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do?def=campaigns.display.page&obj_id=131201

With the next local elections coming up in the spring, those of us with concerns should all be finding out things, 'googling' etc. Too many people are willing to moan and complain but not to do anything more constructive.

Margaret

Ted_Bloke

jennifernil wrote:

So it seems whatever we do we lose out.
We have no intention of staying in this house forever, but at the moment we are fit enough to be able to and would like to enjoy it, be able to have family come to stay etc. That is our choice. It should be our choice to move when we want to, not to have to because of a tax.
We don't mind (well not too much!!!) paying our income tax, but why should we have to pay so much "local tax" because we chose to spend our time and income on providing a nice place for our children to grow up and a comfortable home for my Mother to end her days in, rather than frittering it away on fancy holidays, flashy cars etc?

Sorry, for going on , but I do feel quite strongly about this!!!

On the positive side it looks to me that however you arrange your affairs, if you are thrifty and make some more sacrifices and do nothing foolish like "frittering it away on fancy holidays, flashy cars etc" you should also be able to contribute to the public weal through Inheritance Tax. I hope that is some consolation.

jennifernil

Ted, we definately do not intend to sit at home once we are retired, we are off to see Europe in our caravan! Should OH's pension not prove quite enough to fund this then we can of course sell our big house to keep us going. We are not planning to have enough left to be liable for IHT, but then one cannot plan for every eventuality!
Having prudently provided for our retirement, we hope to be granted the time to enjoy it.

Mike_S_8

EdInvestor wrote:

This is quite normal for final salary pension schemes.

Contributions to private sector schemes are paid for out of profits - not out of taxpayers pockets.

elmer

Mike_S wrote:

Contributions to private sector schemes are paid for out of profits - not out of taxpayers pockets.

BUt we in Local Government dont make profits, imagine the howls of protests if we did to fund our pensions, mind you mine would be funded for the year with what I receipted today

Elmer

Mike_S_8

elmer wrote:

BUt we in Local Government dont make profits, imagine the howls of protests if we did to fund our pensions, mind you mine would be funded for the year with what I receipted today

That is exactly my point! Local Government is a cost that taxpayers have to fund. But Local Govt. is unconstrained. Being careful with taxpayers' money is the furthest thing from their minds. They can - and do - rip us off with their incessant increases in council tax.

Taxpayers' money is frittered away on daft schemes, silly jobs and the building of useless, top-heavy, self-perpetuating and growing bureaucracies.

You only have to look at all the Local Govt. jobs advertised in Society Guardian every Wednesday to see where a lot of taxpayers' money goes. Director of this; that; the other; Assistant Director; Deputy Director; Senior Manager; Manager; Assistant Manager; Deputy Manager - it's all just so much empire-building. And they take their fat salaries and hide away in their cosy offices while the front-line staff take all the flak.

And the number of employees in the public sector continues to grow. For example - from their published accounts - as at March 31 2006 Hampshire County employed 38,849 people. Add to this about 500 more employees in each of the 11 District Councils in Hants - and then another 2 or 3 (say) for each of the 242 parishes in the County.

Well over 40,000 people in total - to run just one county - and for whom the taxpayer has to pay not only salaries - but also pensions. And this number does not include employees of the Hants Police or Fire Service.

By way of comparison the ENTIRE British Royal Navy is manned by 37,500 - and that includes 6,000 Royal Marines - the amphibious fighting force - and the taxpayer also foots the bill for their wages and pensions! (Source of RN info. http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.3687#Q3 )