excessive landlord's notice fee months after completion date

timmyt

sobre44 wrote: »

Thanks MMM,

I went into the estate agents to ask for advice about this. The lady there suggested I not bother paying it now, but it would become relevent if ever I wanted to sell the property.

If the landlord refuses to give consent then the land registry will not have a record of my ownership so that would presumably stop me ever selling the property until the matter was resolved (If I understand correctly).

Could this be an issue?

J

it is a legal question, nothing an EA knows about

timmyt

MegaMiniMouse wrote: »

Clearly, this is an issue! And now is the time to get it sorted out...

Solicitors oh god, another gibberish reply make vast profits out of the complications of property ownership - if they !!!! it up, then there are proper channels for complaint

You are either the legal owner of the lease, or you are not. Your solicitor was paid to ensure the transfer of ownership into your name - if the transfer was flawed in any way, then the liability is almost certainly the solicitor's - they are supposed to find out about all the issues surrounding the transfer of ownership, including landlord's charges etc.

The deeds either show that you are now the leaseholder, or else they show that somebody else is the leaseholder - there are no half-way positions - you have paid your solicitor to sort this out - do you have a mortgage?

ps - the estate agent has presumably been paid, and probably has no knowledge or interest in whether or not the transaction has been properly and legally finalised...

ignore this post

timmyt

sobre44 wrote: »

I agree that they should have found out everything regarding such issues.

I also think though that if the Managing Agent did misinform them as stated in the letter I received then they (the management company) could be liable and so any extra fee that came after the completion date is a loss that they must take. why did your lawyer not have the seller pay the deed of covenant fee or the fee for providing consent...your lawyer is not to blame if they did get the wrong price from the managing agent...but I spell fish, so get them to send you the 'wrong letter'

In any case is there any consumer protection against such large fees? From what I have read tonight such a fee might perhaps be £40 to £100-and as it is a small property maybe on the lower side of that spectrum.

£368 seems far too high and not justified for merely giving their consent.

If the solicitors are to blame then you recommend that I complain about them via proper channels?

I think that if I just talk to them they will claim that they are not liable as the managing agent misinformed them. They could refuse to pay and the registry would remain undone. I am concerned that if things turn sour then I will have to find another solicitor to complete the land registry-with additional cost-and I may have to pay the fee as well.

Yes, I have a mortgage on the property and things are tight moneywise.

J

we don't know if your 'conveyancer' made a mistake yet

must-resist-ebay

The land registry aren't going to be able to give any meaningfull help I'm afraid, the most they will be allowed to say will be whether there are restrictions that must be complied with before registration can take place or of there is an application pending. If you've downloaded the register then look in the propriertorship register, anything starting 'No dispostion of the registered estate...' will be a restriction that needs complying with - check the wording carefully, sometimes a specified person has to give a certificate or consent sometimes your solicitor has to certify that he has notified a specific person about the transaction.

I would ask your solicitor for copies of the correspondence he sent to the managing agents regarding costs and their reply, if he failed to ask I would suggest he did not give you the service you paid for and you should seek a partial refund for his services (£368 would seem appropriate ) if however the managing agents have quoted a fee for this consent then arguably this is the fee you should be paying, it may be that you need to pay the £368 as a duisputed payment and then sue them for the difference.

Ultimately if you need the consent before you can be registered as proprietor at the land registry you need to make this your priority as you are not the legal owner until registered

timmyt

G_M wrote: »

You have received a lot of misinformation above.

Your solicitor said: " we are still in the process of registering the property at the Land Registry." so first off, the Transfer is NOT complete and you don't yet formally own the property!

2nd off, this is not the solicitor's fault "the Managing Agents misinformed us of ..." so blame the managing agents, not your solicitor.

3rd, without the consent of the Managing Agent, the Transfer cannot be registered with the Land Registry, so payment of their fee is compulsory.

and finally, your solicitor is not making money on this - it is a fee which the MA gets - the solicitor just pases it on. In fact the solicitor is now doing extra work on your behalf, for free (well, within the fee you've already paid him) to sort out the MA's mistake on your behalf.

Yes, the MA should have specified the right fee up front. If you want to make an issue over this, and delay completion of your ownership further, take your dispute up with the MA.

Your solicitor might charge you fo handling this dispute if you choose to employ him to do it rather than raise the dispute yourself.

edit: to check if you DO own the property, pay the Land Registry £4 and see if your name appears on the lease Title. I suspect it won't. You can download it instantly online.

sorry, I should have read GM's post first - I get annoyed reading other peopke's posts so I tend not to, but GM is spot on.

I suspect your conveyancer may be telling a half truth.....so get their letter as GM says. Keep us updated OP

satchmeister

sobre44 wrote: »

Hi,



Also £368.00 seems excessively high for the landlords merely to give their consent regarding the land registry.



Thanks

Part of the ways the freeholder and managing agents rip off leaseholders. Yes £368 for a standard letter produced by the office junior in 5 minutes.

G_M

sobre44 wrote: »

Hi G_M,





Did the completion date etc mean anything then? I signed and paid and I am paying council tax for the property etc.

Well in a sense you own the property, and yes, council tax etc is down to you. I assume you paid the full price and received the keys in return (rhetorical question). However you would never be able to sell since you do not have Title at the Land Registry (as you have confirmed yourself). The LR is the onle true source of property ownership in the UK.

That seems right to me. The only point is that the soliciter's paperwork does not mention the landlord's notice fee in the breakdown of fees (unless it is notice of assignment?-which I paid £99.88)
The difficulty solicitors have is that flats/leaseholds are all different. Some are 2 flat buildings with one flat-owner owning the frehold as well, some ar massive buildings, with a commercial company owning the freehold and another company acting as MA. The former might well grant consent with NO fee. The latter is in business to make a profit and will charge as much as possible. In between might be a small managing company that charges a token amount to cover their time. Your solicitor cannot anticipate this at the start so cannot quote you for something that might not even be charged. If subsequently the solicitor is 'misinformed', it's hardly his fault.

Must admit I'm not sure about the 'Notice of assignmemt'. This does sound like the fee inquestion - perhaps this was the erroneous fee initially quoted by the MAs?
As I understand now this "landlords notice fee" is a usual part of the process. So shouldnt the soliciter have enquired about it? If it was not on the list then shouldnt they have noticed that as unusual and got clarification from the landlord/managing agent?

It sounds like the solicitor WAS given a fee (possible the £99.88 you were quoted and paid?), so had no reason to question the MAs further. You could clarify thsi with the solicitors.

I see. Isnt there some kind of legal upper limit that they can charge though? I agreed to buy the property with the information of fees etc that I had been given. Now they have demanded this seemingly excessive figure of £368 for the process to be completed. What would stop them from charging say £10,000? If the usual admin fee for such consent is around £60 then is not £368 an unfair and unacceptable fee?
I don't know though I'm pretty sure it must be 'reasonable' (!!)
There's a similar query, with answrs, here.

Richard or Timmy could provide a better answer than I can.

I understand that the soliciter is not making money on this-they would just be passing the sum on. They are working now within the amount I paid them to arrange completion. Still if they did not enquire properly about the landlord's notice fee then I would say that they might be at fault in some way. Is this correct?
I doubt it - see my answer above.





Any advise regarding this? Do I have any rights as they were in error and seem to be charging a massively excessive amount regarding such a small property-and after the official completion date?

Read your lease - does it say anything about needing freeholder/managing agent consent? Does it say anything about fees?



I would feel like disputing any such charge as I paid them the agreed sum for arranging the completion plus they may not have enquired about the lack of landlord's notice fee in the paperwork.
As per my 1st post - dispute this with the MA, not your solicitor. To do so you will need documents/history etc from your solicitors to understand what went on. Your solicitor should provide all relevant paperwork, and MAY well assist you by querying the fee with the MA on your behalf.


Thanks, I checked with the land registry as suggested and the record shows that the property is still registered as with the previous lease holder-the lady who I bought the property from.
No surprise there then.
I also enquired about the freeholders and they are:

FREEHOLD MANAGERS (NOMINEES) LIMITED


J

You need to ring your solicitors, NOT have a go at them, but ask what happened, ask for copies of paperwork, and ask if they'll help you dispute the fee with the MAs.

EDIT: The leasehold advice centre has this to say on admin charges:
What can I do if I disagree with an administration charge?

You have two courses of remedy, depending on whether the charge is variable or fixed in the lease:

• where the charge is variable, you may make an application to the Leasehold Valuation Tribunal (LVT) for a determination of reasonableness. A variable administrative charge is one where the amount of the charge is not specified in the lease or calculated according to a formula specified in the lease.
• where the charge is fixed by the lease or a formula in the lease, you may apply to the LVT to vary the lease, on the grounds that the amount specified is unreasonable or that the formula is unreasonable. If the LVT is satisfied, it may make an order to vary the terms of the lease, to substitute a reasonable amount or to amend the formula, either as requested by you or as the LVT finds appropriate.

An application cannot be made to the LVT where the charge has been agreed or admitted by the leaseholder, has been or is to be referred to arbitration pursuant to a post-dispute arbitration agreement, or has already been determined by a court or Tribunal.

MegaMiniMouse

timmyt wrote: »

I get annoyed reading other peopke's posts so I tend not to

That is fairly obvious, if you don't mind me saying so!

luv u lots

MMM

MegaMiniMouse

Hi Sobre, further to my earlier posts, I seriously think that there is a possibility that the freeholders and their managing agents etc are following a well-practised kite-flying routine, secure in the knowledge that your solicitor will not be remotely interested in dealing with the issue, having received his fees etc etc

That is why I think you may have grounds for complaint against your solicitor because he has told you that your purchase is 'complete' whereas it now appears that is not in fact the case


MMM

MegaMiniMouse

back to top

sorry to be a bore...

If I were a Solicitor trying to justify my prices, I might use the OP's situation as an illustration of the kind of pitfall which is waiting to ensnare the unsuspecting amateur conveyancer

But the OP paid the Solicitor's prices, and has ended up ensnared along with all the unsuspecting amateurs

Not good!

MMM