Stop The Rip-Off - Demand A Mobile Communications Charter

AlexChambers

echoecho wrote: »

Don't all mobile phone companies have a free number to ring from your phone that tells you exactly how many inclusive minutes you have left? That being said, I think it would be a good idea for parent's to be able to 'link' their account to their child's and then get a text update to inform them if the inclusive minutes have been used. I don't agree with the idea of a cap because it is up to you to use your phone responsibly. I don't buy the whole 'by accident' reasoning.

With regards to your point of having the ability to make non-emergency calls which may be urgent; I believe O2 offer a 'borrow a pound' scheme for PAYG customers who have run out of credit. It gives you one pounds worth of credit which is then claimed back when you next top up. This may be useful for children who have run out of credit and need to make an urgent call, but for most other people, topups can be made over the phone using a debit card.

Hi EchoEcho,

yes, Vodafone offer £2.00 borrowed credit on PAYG taken off next £10 top up. Most networks offers something similar which shows there is a problem.

My point with the Charter is that we are heading towards eMoney whereby the phone becomes money. If you check The Guardian article I referred to and add this to WantMeMoney's informative and researched contributions it starts to build a picture.

At issue is whether the customer has the right to control their bills and their bank accounts. Whether you are a company paying for another person's phone or a parent paying for a child or partner there is no right to place a limit on call charges over a bundle.

Why should you not be able to cap your spending? It's your money and you should be able to control it.

What would you say if you were not able to buy car insurance, house insurance or a pension or have brakes on a car? Surely, the responsible thing is to provide limits?

In our case my daughter only exceeded her limit when Vodafone stopped providing SMS usage messages and stopped posting invoices after 12 months. However, we seem to be responsible for the lack of controls.

Regarding checking usage on contract perhaps users on different networks can advise whether you can check your usage and get warnings when you get near your limit or average more than the monthly bundle on a daily basis. Are such calls free?

Unfortunately, topups can't be made by children by debit card because they are under 18 and we are in the middle of 9 villages with no Post Office or shop with topup or banking facilities.

This morning I had to give my 16 year old daughter £60 for her school bus fare plus £15 school dinners to both of them. Easy if you keep a big petty cash tin but it would be a major problem if the buses stop taking large amounts of cash as eMoney comes in and bus fares rise (the 80% fuel duty subsidy is being withdrawn from country buses next year I believe).

What do you do if you can't manage your eMoney because your smartphone won't let you bank because you are out of credit? As, WantMeMoney pointed out, mobile phone companies are collecting and managing credit.

I really don't see why mobile phone spending over bundle should not be regulated like credit cards since the possibility of limitless bills is there are Otelo are indicating to me that there that you cannot stop excess charges under contract and that accidental or 3rd party usage is not covered by the direct debit mandate.

My experience is you can't use a lot of devices like iPhones or Palms on PAYG - if anybody knows a network where I can use my ex contract iPhone with a PAYG chip, let me know pls.

Similarly, does anyone know of a phone provider who will allow a spending cap to be placed on any of there contracts with similar rates and phones with similar functions to those on contract?

Freddie_Snowbits

There are ways to limit the spend.

On the electricity, gas, use a prepayment meter. On the school dinners, a packed lunch. On the trinket, a cheap payg.

As for brakes on a car, ...

As for emoney, it is a personal choice wether or not you wish to have it. To me, my cc was cloned, by the Best Western website and used to purchase something called an oyster card, I note the checks may not be in phase, but my card issuer sorted with too much hassle, stood for twenty minutes in a shell garage while I was investigated did not help.

As for some parts of your post op, I think a visit to another, relationship board, may offer better advise than freddie's fireside chittle

AlexChambers

Freddie_Snowbits wrote: »

There are ways to limit the spend.

On the electricity, gas, use a prepayment meter. On the school dinners, a packed lunch. On the trinket, a cheap payg.

As for brakes on a car, ...

As for emoney, it is a personal choice wether or not you wish to have it. To me, my cc was cloned, by the Best Western website and used to purchase something called an oyster card, I note the checks may not be in phase, but my card issuer sorted with too much hassle, stood for twenty minutes in a shell garage while I was investigated did not help.

As for some parts of your post op, I think a visit to another, relationship board, may offer better advise than freddie's fireside chittle

Hi Freddie,

Keep it up!

I see you speak from experience about a problem with your credit card being cloned and availed yourself of the protection and security system given to credit cards to protect the bank's money (not yours, since they lend it to you).

What I am saying from experience is that there should be protection for your money and your bank account for payment of mobile comms bills under a direct debit authorisation and that spending over a limit should be subject to the same authorisation or spending limits security as a credit or debit card since the transaction involves credit and, in theory, regulation by the FSA.

What would you do if you received 3 further months bills after you

(a) suspended payment under direct debit mandate

(b) were told the account was suspended (e.g. no access = no service?)

(c) were billed under a contract for service when the service was disconnected

(d) presented with a bill (when you were told one could not be provided) for 4 months 'connection' in one bill 3 months later?

(e) did not sign a contract giving the other party the right to block invoice queries, billing or withdrawal of whatever amount of money from your account whenever the other party chooses by means of a 'deadlock letter' ("I am sorry we have been unable to reach a resolution to this matter. Regrettably, we have now exhausted our internal complaint review process and this letter constitutes Vodafone’s final position.")

Since you have not experienced that problem I suggest you ask your mates in the Duck what they would do in these circumstances and whether there should be controls and regulations if they were?

Otelo appear to rule that the direct debit guarantee offers no protection for over bundle spending and there is no means of providing a spending cap under contract as a security measure which is why I suggest there needs to be a Communications Charter since 50% of UK phone users are on contract (if anybody has got a phone company to agree to applying a cap on your spending please blog a reply with details).

Why should 50% of UK phone users not have the right to place safety limits on their spend or have the right to put a limit on a direct debit debits (if there is no spending cap) to reverse the burden of proof in event of problems?

Similarly, I suggest the other 50% of UK phone users on PAYG should be protected from future developments in eMoney and communications so that they can have the same access as contract customers but using PAYG with payment by cash, standing order or automatic topup subject to PIN authorisation as with any other card purchase (like Oyster cards).

Like everything, you do not need insurance until there is an accident and you don't phone the Police before you have been mugged.

I call putting a limit on what a bank or others can take out of your pot being responsible where there is no protection or regulation?

Anybody care to disagree with that?

AlexChambers

gjchester wrote: »

The answer is simple. The Financial Services Authority (FSA) is the regulator of the financial services industry in the UK. Your mobile contract is not a financial service, its a contract for a service but that service is not financial in base.

Mobile companies need to be licenced to offer credit under the consumer credit act, but thats's not directly covered by the FSA.

In the same vein would you expect the FSA to regulate utility companies because you pay by DD?

Thank you GJChester, you have raised a couple of interesting points.

Where a product or service does not have a fixed amount because it is based on consumption for example, should the customer be prevented from placing a limit on consumption, authorised or unauthorised, as a security measure to protect their bank account from excess charges and debits threatening priority bill payments?

What I am saying is that the matter of regulation and whether the provision of credit and collection of payments by direct debit mandate without limits (since there is no spending cap for phones used in the UK and one cannot be requested) needs sorting out PDQ before any eMoney provision is permitted since the phone becomes the repository of the credit as I understand it (let us know please WantMeMoney).

Is eMoney on a mobile phone a financial service? I would have thought that is "financial in it's base" if that is the test.

Is the provision of credit for a service and the holding of a direct debit mandate to withdraw money from your bank account for amounts specified by another party on dates specified at will by another party a financial service?

I have asked the UK Payments Administration Ltd. (a private company) for a ruling on this in my case btw - see one of my replies to WantMeMoney.

Reversing the thought process for a minute, if the taking of money without consent is theft or fraud why should there not be regulations or laws governing transactions where one or other parties have to agree?

Thinking it through, yes, I would expect the payments process of any utility company like mobile communications to be regulated by the FSA since it involves the provision or removal of credit (money) to or from a bank account.

Correct me if I'm wrong bloggers.

Jeff_Bridges_hair

So basically you want some sort of directive because your bairn spent too much money on the phone?

If you authorise someone to take money out of your account you should be prepared to realise that they will take out what is owed to them

You ever thought of trying to take some personal responsibility?ever thought of that?

AlexChambers

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

So basically you want some sort of directive because your bairn spent too much money on the phone?

If you authorise someone to take money out of your account you should be prepared to realise that they will take out what is owed to them

You ever thought of trying to take some personal responsibility?ever thought of that?

Forget my daughter - this blog isn't The Sun! letters page and we're not in Scotland!

Insert "without limit" into your statement then read it again.

If you want the facts simplified read my reply to Freddie SFreddie_Snowbits and ask yourself the same questions.

This blog about whether phone contracts should be regulated as other contracts and whether the handling of credit and use of direct debits is and should be regulated by the FSA and whether spending limits on contract phones should be allowed in the UK as with data roaming abroad.

The Communications Charter is a heads up to use of phones as eMoney - see WantMeMoney's contributions and read The Guardian article.

Jeff_Bridges_hair

AlexChambers wrote: »

Forget my daughter - this blog isn't The Sun! letters page and we're not in Scotland!

Insert "without limit" into your statement then read it again.

If you want the facts simplified read my reply to Freddie SFreddie_Snowbits and ask yourself the same questions.

This blog about whether phone contracts should be regulated as other contracts and whether the handling of credit and use of direct debits is and should be regulated by the FSA and whether spending limits on contract phones should be allowed in the UK as with data roaming abroad.

The Communications Charter is a heads up to use of phones as eMoney - see WantMeMoney's contributions and read The Guardian article.

they have been this way since they were first on the scene so if it was deemed unfair it would have been dealt with by now would it not? Both by EU and British courts. Do you not wonder why it hasnt happened by now?

My contract states that i get a limit, if i go over that limit i will be charged. What does your contract say? Pretty much the same i would hazard a guess so because you didnt read it you feel that you are hard done by now dont you?

Lirin

Alex, what may be a good idea for your daughter are phone cards. I had one when I was a teen, still do somewhere. I could use it from any phone, whether it was someone's landline, mobile, or a phonebox. It only dialled to my parents, and informed them on pickup I was using the card. That was for emergencies. BT still provide them I think.
Barring that, my first phone was PAYG with excess possible in an emergency- I just had to phone the supplier, tell them what happened, and they'd connect me. Never had to use it though, as I always made sure I had a pound credit on the phone.

AlexChambers

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

they have been this way since they were first on the scene so if it was deemed unfair it would have been dealt with by now would it not? Both by EU and British courts. Do you not wonder why it hasnt happened by now?

My contract states that i get a limit, if i go over that limit i will be charged. What does your contract say? Pretty much the same i would hazard a guess so because you didnt read it you feel that you are hard done by now dont you?

Hi Jeff,

You are missing the point.

1. phones are not the same as when I used to carry a lorry battery with a handset about. There is now the internet, digital music, digital messaging and digital everything from movies to scanning the barcodes of your shopping and checking the price on comparison websites using that app on iPhone. eMaoney is about to appear. Consequently, the potential charges and revenues and abuse are exponential.

If you received a bill for £5000 or £10000 because you sat on your phone and downloaded War & Peace or called Qatar at £1.00/min then you might be disappointed to find you were 100% liable and there is no in surance you can take out by way of a spending limit since there is no PIN authorisation system for calls a multiple of your bundle on contract and no limit on PAYG either.

I think you should be able to specify a call limit by PIN code myself or place a limit on account spend or there should be the same security and controls as with credit cards since charges are underwritten direct debit. If not you should be able to specify a limit to direct debits if it is decided that there should be no limit to phone charges and no security system.

What I am saying is that there should be equality with credit cards since you can run up similar bills by accident.

Check my reply to Freddie Snowbits as to the facts of our case and substitute "my mum" for daughter and see what you think then.

2. If you read the facts of our case we did not have a contract and one would think that mobile contracts are regulated by the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and payments covered by the Direct Debit Guarantee. It is what is not in the contract that is the issue.

I am campaigning for mobile contracts across the board to be tested in range of circumstances and, thinking forward, seeing what the situation would be with eMoney.

3. "Both by EU and British courts. Do you not wonder why it hasnt happened by now? See WantMeMoney's contribution and read The Guardian article I refer to.

Let us know what you think after you have read these three things.

Incidentally, I did not know my youngest had a contract phone when my wife who took out the contract was taken ill and my youngest and I had no reason to be on enquiry owing to paper bills and SMS credit mesages being stopped.

AlexChambers

Lirin wrote: »

Alex, what may be a good idea for your daughter are phone cards. I had one when I was a teen, still do somewhere. I could use it from any phone, whether it was someone's landline, mobile, or a phonebox. It only dialled to my parents, and informed them on pickup I was using the card. That was for emergencies. BT still provide them I think.
Barring that, my first phone was PAYG with excess possible in an emergency- I just had to phone the supplier, tell them what happened, and they'd connect me. Never had to use it though, as I always made sure I had a pound credit on the phone.

Hi Lirin,

Yes, we thought of that.

We still have a phonebox in our village (which does not take cash it turns out) but there are none in the villages on the bus route from the town where my daughter's school is located on the other side. The problem here is that if you catch the wrong bus or it's cancelled you have to walk over fields in the dark and all weathers or walk on the road which can be considerably more dangerous.

Last year our village bus service was cut 50% to one bus every two hours or so and may go when the Government withdraws the fuel duty rebate on 80% of the fuel used by rural bus operators.

Anyway, that is not really the point except insofar as the mobile phone companies are threatening to withdraw free connection on PAYG see The Guardian Article

"Planned cuts in mobile phone rates will leave low-income users worse off
Ofcom aims to cut £800m off UK's annual mobile bill but networks say proposals will force millions to give up their phones"

By Richard Wray dated Monday 21 June 2010

This becomes a problem with the introduction of eMoney and the stopping of paper cheques since you can't pay thebus driver with a cheque if they refuse to accept cash (see my comment earlier) or you can't pay with your phone if it is disconnected for any reason I presume.

In our case we are in the middle of 9 villages and a hundred square miles without a Post Office or shop with topup facilities (in the Midlands not Cornwall or Scotland would you believe!).

This is why I think we need a Communications Charter to examine the whole range of issues, offer protection to existing customers and deal with the problem of communication replacing disappearing services.